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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Workwear is much more of an issue for women than men

34 replies

Echobelly · 29/08/2018 11:01

Had a discussion with DH (which turned into a bit of an argument) where I was saying I was interested in the idea I heard that for women there is no ‘neutral’ outfit that won’t be judged in the workplace one way or another, whereas for men it’s pretty simple in most settings – suit = professional, casual = not trying enough/low status (unless it’s somewhere very casual). He got annoyed because he felt that he saw women wearing what they like at his workplace, whereas guys had to wear suits and the lack of choice pissed him off. I didn’t feel it worth replying that yes, lack of choice/expression for men is an annoyance, but it’s nothing like as bad as having your whole competence sometimes questioned on a small detail of your outfit as can happen with women.

Ask 50 people what they think about the likely work performance of a guy in a dark suit with a sober tie and probably all of them will say ‘He looks professional’ – ask them to comment on a woman in a suit and you’ll probably get a multitude of replies that might question whether she looks ‘distracting’, ‘frumpy’, ‘high maintenance’, ‘low self-worth’, ‘wallflower’ etc depending on some small variances. Yes, women in DH’s office may seem to ‘get away’ with more in what they wear in terms of not being disciplined for it, but maybe more of them are being judged unprofessional, unambitious, flirty etc because of their choices. Whereas men can know where they stand with what they wear, even if it's annoying that it's so limited.

DH suggested that surely ‘neutral’ for a woman would be a dark suit, white shirt and mid heel – I pointed out some people would declare that frumpy, anonymous, low-status, dull, that a woman who dressed like that was undynamic and unambitious. He really did not get it!
So yes, dress expectations for men are irritating, but they are pretty unambiguous and tend not to have serious outcomes, whereas women will always be judged and often taken significantly less seriously on tiny, everyday details of ordinary clothes in a way that will never happen to men unless they happen to be unusually flamboyant.

OP posts:
VeryVerySilly · 29/08/2018 12:28

People really can moan about anything.

deydododatdodontdeydo · 29/08/2018 12:03

Are "interview clothes" different from normal work clothes?
Is it the same for men?
In my experience men may wear a tie and jacket to an interview, but depending on the workplace, wear just a shirt after that.
Unless the office enforces jackets and ties, some do.
Perhaps women wear more sober or conservative clothes for interview, but then wear pretty much what they like after that.

LouiseCollins28 · 29/08/2018 11:59

interesting thought there about the girls coming in for entry level roles and their choices Echobelly. I remember being similarly somewhat conservative at the first few interviews I went too when I was younger too. I would still be formal and fairly conservative now.

Sorry I didn't mean to imply that your DH was "judgy", to use that horrible phrase.

Echobelly · 29/08/2018 11:43

I should point out he wasn't saying he'd judge a woman's hell height he was trying to establish what he thought most people might see as 'neutral'.

He brought up the point of other women's judgement and I agreed it is that as well, of course.

It made me think of a judgement I'd made, funnily enough of very close to his neutral outfit, early in my career. I'd often see girls coming in for interviews for opening roles in a plain black Next skirt suit, white shirt, black shoes, that often didn't fit very well and they weren't very comfortable in, and think they looked very anonymous and lacking confidence in such an outfit. Which was kind of unfair as they were only just starting out!

NB, I'm in publishing, so it's not a very suity atmosphere.

OP posts:
LouiseCollins28 · 29/08/2018 11:32

That's an interesting observation Lancelottie. What would be in your opinion the equivalent for a woman of the man's outfit that Echobelly described?
Also, isn't it true that it isn't so much that someone#s DH is "instantly judging any woman..." that does (or doesn't) wear x or y, but that much of the judgement comes from other women?

deydododatdodontdeydo · 29/08/2018 11:31

I think being judged more is the flipside of having more choice.
Leaving aside the workplaces which enforce short skirts/high heels (I don't think any offices do that these days), women can wear almost what they like.
The downside of this is that some people will judge them.
Men have a very narrow range of acceptable office wear, but will only be judged if they fall outside of that.

Lancelottie · 29/08/2018 11:25

If 'mid heel' is neutral, that means he is instantly judging any woman who doesn't wear heels, even if they wear what he would consider completely neutral shoes for a man.

I can't wear heels, so he would presumably see my shoes as a 'statement'.

Ifailed · 29/08/2018 11:23

Is it just confined to the workplace, or are women more likely to be judged by their clothes than men wherever they are?

theOtherPamAyres · 29/08/2018 11:17

My workplace has one-uniform-fits-all protective clothing.

When I need a pee, I have to remove the whole bloody lot. And then put the whole bloody lot back on again. The blokes undo a few buttons and are back in no time.

Yeah - gender neutral workwear really works for me and my female colleagues.