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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Stunning, brave translady is both stunning and brave

310 replies

CaitlynsCat · 28/08/2018 19:38

www.leicestermercury.co.uk/news/leicester-news/decisions-led-dad-become-transgender-1944624

"As well as having made the huge decision to begin transgender treatment, Martin also decided that he would not hide any longer.

He would come out as a transgender woman - as Katie - in a way which was very publicly indeed.

Since then, he has been shouting his experiences from the rooftops via social media and local radio and – by and large – has received something of a hero’s welcome."

"Martin/Katie was not only heterosexual, he wanted a child.

He cut his hair, fell in love and the couple had a child together, who is the apple of his eye.

Then in May last year, Martin went to see a clairvoyant he had met at a business networking meeting.

“I went along for a reading because I’d never been to one and I was intrigued,” she says.

What she told him was that he needed to start a new way of being and said there was a part of him that had always been there but that he was not fully in integrity with."

"after that, my gender dysphoria increased dramatically – I was so desperate to identify myself I even Googled ‘what gender is Martin Neeves?’ ”

Desperate, confused and in turmoil, he joined a support group on social media and someone suggested he should see a specialist gender counsellor.

After four successful sessions, in which he says he "hit the ground running", he felt that he was "gender fluid" ("nature doesn’t do black and white, it presents a whole spectrum.")"

"Katie now says: “After counselling and working through therapy on how to identify your gender, I now know I am 70 percent female and 30 percent male.

"It was my fear stopping me from admitting I am actually a transgender woman.”

A second visit to the clairvoyant resulted in a four-hour clarification session using deep meditation and other methods as a way of encouraging and revealing inner truth, with all the answers coming from Martin."

"She looks wonderful and feels great. Her prescribed hormones have made her skin soft, and as a naturally slightly-built person, she has an enviable figure.

She counts herself lucky as many other transgender women are naturally of a heavy build.

Brave determination has paid off, she is happier and more relaxed than ever.

Katie’s name will not be considered for the long waiting list for the actual operation to make her into a woman sexually, until she has lived full-time for a woman as a year."

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UnderHerEye · 29/08/2018 16:52

Wow Rat see how quickly you were sold down the river in order for the TRAs to score points against mumsnet ?

Does that not give you a tiny hint as to how little women actually matter to them? Even women who agree with them are expendable if it’s for the greater good....

RatRolyPoly · 29/08/2018 16:52

Maryz Advanced Search is your friend. I have literally answered all of those. For at least a year. Like, specifically. What is a woman? Check. Trans women in sport? Check. Men in sport? Check. Literally every single one. I finish work at 5. I probably should have got more done...

If you want to rehash any of those by all means start a thread about them, I may or may not post, I may be arsed to link my past posts, I may have a life outside of Mumsnet; who's to say.

bellinisurge · 29/08/2018 16:51

@RatRolyPoly - you dismiss the horrific Challenor story as an appeal to emotions. But surely the self-I'd argument is an appeal to emotions.
It's nice to be fair tolerant and understanding. But put my dd at risk and I ain't so nice.

Maryzsnewaccount · 29/08/2018 16:50

Or, let's be even simpler:

Do you have a definition of "woman" that includes me (XX but don't believe in gender and all tans people who believe they are women -but excludes all men.

By refusing to do so, you are making everything you say here entirely meaningless, because you may as well be speaking a foreign language and refusing to translate.

Maryzsnewaccount · 29/08/2018 16:48

Rat, you have never answered direct questions. You answer with "I've already answered that, a million times, and I'm just off out now".

Here's a few:

What is a woman?
Is a man a woman just because he says he is or does he need to have proof, and if so wha?

Should a person with XY chromosomes and a penis be allowed to enter women's sport? (I expect your answer to that one is yes if he (1) says he's a woman) and (2) has a certain level of testosterone)

In which case, should a man who doesn't say he's a woman, but has the same testosterone level as the above man, be allowed to enter the women's events.

You can't answer those. You never do.

RatRolyPoly · 29/08/2018 16:48

This is quite a thing to say in light of the Challenor case, where Challenor senior dressed up as a child wearing a nappy and violently raped a child, whilst encouraging his trans child to stand for parliament and work on eroding sex segregation.

Are you implying that that specific case is something I was referring to? On what are you basing that? Baffled at how you've shoe-horned that appeal to emotions story into the conversation to be honest.

RatRolyPoly · 29/08/2018 16:46

oh and rat if you weren't aware, 12thguleph (who?) and your reply to them where you lolled at them saying that it was 'raging at trans people or at immigrants' has been pcked up on twitter by Hetty Spoon and retweeted by HArrop s examples of hate on MN. Great stuff.

Ha! That's amazing. I don't have Twitter so I wasn't aware; clearly they interpreted 12th's comment in a completely different vein to me. Thanks for letting me know, I feel kind of Twitter famous (I'm famous, right??), even though it's for a complete misunderstanding Grin

gendercritter · 29/08/2018 16:44

Sorrygender, it's just I've hashed it out endlessly on here for the last year at least. I've heard all the arguments for harm and I've interrogated those arguments; no-one gets to "tell" me something without it standing up to scrutiny

This is quite a thing to say in light of the Challenor case, where Challenor senior dressed up as a child wearing a nappy and violently raped a child, whilst encouraging his trans child to stand for parliament and work on eroding sex segregation.

bellinisurge · 29/08/2018 16:43

@RatRolyPoly - what is transphobic about expecting trans women to be respectful and mindful of the wishes of women and girls who prefer women only spaces. Why should my 11 year old dd get changed in a women only changing room and expect her right to privacy and dignity be trumped by someone who wants to flash their dick around. Why should she assume that no dick she sees in the changing room will harm her. Why is she a transphobe if someone makes her feel threatened and uncomfortable?
I know you are tired of answering these questions. Indulge me.

seafret · 29/08/2018 16:42

oh and rat if you weren't aware, 12thguleph (who?) and your reply to them where you lolled at them saying that it was 'raging at trans people or at immigrants' has been pcked up on twitter by Hetty Spoon and retweeted by HArrop s examples of hate on MN. Great stuff.

What we say here matters. but then they will always be trolling and looking for the 1%.

SimonBridges · 29/08/2018 16:40

It is interesting that we are having the discussion about how does this harm women and girls on the same day that a report comes out about the large number of girls self harming, part of which is put down to the stereotyping of gender roles.

By saying that women have nice figures, soft skin and wear nice clothes you are reinforcing those gender roles.

RatRolyPoly · 29/08/2018 16:38

Women are telling you how it does harm them or will harm them and you can't see it.

Sorry gender, it's just I've hashed it out endlessly on here for the last year at least. I've heard all the arguments for harm and I've interrogated those arguments; no-one gets to "tell" me something without it standing up to scrutiny; and the place I've come out at is that there are better ways to achieve the same protections, some of the fears are overblown or irrelevant, and mostly that the people we could feasibly hold to account to protect women and girls are not the individual trans people who come in for so much stick on here.

I'm afraid I don't really have time to outline in depth my position on every single aspect of the debate, but most of it is one past thread or another. The very first petition thread probably covers self-ID pretty comprehensively. The rest, I'm afraid, is all over the shop. Perhaps I'll stick around after today and hash it out some more.

seafret · 29/08/2018 16:34

It is all the better to hide the men-women's male faces I presume

seafret · 29/08/2018 16:33

rat so when THE LAW said that there was no such thing as rape in marriage that was right and ok was it?

Society should make the law - too often it is just men.

Ah, I see, so these awards are not for women who having struggled to overcome their oppression and disadvantage and suceed in business, it is fo0 those people who have managed to be seen to suceed at being feminine whilst being in business.

OH MY FUCKING GOD... I just went to the East Midlands Women's Awards to verify some info and this is their front page photograph - just a woman's body (presumably) in slim fitting clothes but not even showing her face. So men-women and faceless women now. Great

Stunning, brave translady is both stunning and brave
VickyEadie · 29/08/2018 16:30

RatRolyPoly

Not a "try" at all - what is your view of what is "best for women and girls", therefore?

Movablefeast · 29/08/2018 16:29

It is just this Gaslighting that rather than say these men are expanding the idea of what men can wear and do we are forced to accept that dressing in stereotypical women’s clothes, wearing a wig and partaking in certain behaviour makes you a woman.

It is because we are socialized to be so understanding and kind that women have put up with and been put upon by this narrative. Apparently it is something we are not allowed to question otherwise we are “mean” and “phobic”.

I think it’s very narcissistic behaviour to dress differently, to unilaterally decide to redefine my marriage and family and go to the newspapers about it expecting adulation. It is so belittling of women’s everyday lives and struggles which come down to biology.

This man is also switching back and forth between presenting in a feminine manner and a masculine manner and that alone is supposed to define him being “male”or “female”. Such superficial definitions of what it means to be a man or a woman are offensive.

His descriptions of seeing the clairvoyant and his personal history just read as someone very self absorbed, you have to emphasize with his wife and children when he is some invested in his personal appearance and identity to their detriment.

gendercritter · 29/08/2018 16:28

Ok fair enough. Your position just baffles me tbh. Women are telling you how it does harm them or will harm them and you can't see it.

RatRolyPoly · 29/08/2018 16:25

Just to check - are you saying that allowing any person with a penis into women's spaces, sports, girls' sports, school changing rooms and showers, etc - is "best for women and girls"?

Hahahahahaha, nice try, no.

RatRolyPoly · 29/08/2018 16:25

Rat you have said on other threads that you were a lap dancing, is that right? So maybe fundamentally you have a very different idea about what is right for women and girls.

That is right. I was much younger then. I don't think you should infer too much about my thoughts about women and girls into that to be honest, it was under quite extraordinary circumstances. It always is with any woman working in the sex industry.

VickyEadie · 29/08/2018 16:24

I don't think your position is best for women and girls. I don't. I think mine is. Of course I do, or I wouldn't hold it.

Just to check - are you saying that allowing any person with a penis into women's spaces, sports, girls' sports, school changing rooms and showers, etc - is "best for women and girls"?

gendercritter · 29/08/2018 16:23

*dancer

gendercritter · 29/08/2018 16:23

Rat you have said on other threads that you were a lap dancing, is that right? So maybe fundamentally you have a very different idea about what is right for women and girls.

RatRolyPoly · 29/08/2018 16:21

However, having a hard time doesn't excuse dismissing other people's concerns, or alluding to them being bigoted etc etc etc. I can't claim that the fact that I'm having a shite time irl gives me the green card to repeatedly minimise other people's issues, no matter how unimportant they think they are.

Oh don't be silly, you say I do all those things all the time anyway, whether I'm having a shit time or not! I don't think it gives me a green card, I don't think I do it.

I care about women and girls, obviously I do, I just believe a different course of action is in our/their best interests than the one you're determined to get me to adhere to. I don't think your position is best for women and girls. I don't. I think mine is. Of course I do, or I wouldn't hold it.

But hey ho, no surprise we disagree.

Maryzsnewaccount · 29/08/2018 16:20

As for sport - including men in women's sport hurts many people and will hurt many more if it continues. Hurt them both physically and in other ways - financially, socially, psychologically, all sorts of ways.

Why should thousands of women be disadvantaged to avoid hurting a few men's feelings?

gendercritter · 29/08/2018 16:20

And a good example is the AGP male going into a lingerie shop, trying on undies then giving a young, more vulnerable assustant a knowing wink.

Have they committed a crime? No.

Have they intimidated that women and asserted their dominance over her and involved her in their fetish? Yes. It is a small amount of harm but the small things build over time. These men like putting women in their place. They are free to crack on, too

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