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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Oh FFS! Pronouns at work. Need to rant!

80 replies

PedantWithAnAxeToGrind · 28/08/2018 18:14

Namechanged on the grounds that I at least hope this may still be vaguely identifiable due to its rarity.

I realise this doesn't hurt me personally in the grand scheme of things, but I do work in a sector that makes it twice as hard for women, still. And yet:

Apparently, we now all get to set our pronouns in our work IT systems. We are kindly given the choice between he/she/they/define your own via text input. Yes, really. We get to use our own made up ones if we please.

They also helpfully educate us that pronouns apparently 'refer to our gender identities or expressions'. No, they really fucking don't! Pronouns are 'pro nomina', i.e. words used in the place of names. Nothing more or less. No metaphysical BS required.

WIBU I to set mine to 'fuckoff/fuckoffs (or fucksoff?)/fuckoffself'?

Sorry, dear firm, I normally like working for you. You pay me very decently and pronote me on a regular basis. But when my ex-boss stated in the middle of a team meeting that he'd like to spill something other than coffee on me, he got a slap on the wrist and a promotion the year after. When I sit in management level meetings, everyone else in there except myself has had the privilege of not being brought up to be pleasing and conciliatory and developed a thundering baritone some time during puberty to boot. That would be because - in my division at least - we literally have but a handful of woman managers. So much so that I'm trotted out like a fucking show pony at every occasion to serve as the showcase diversity hire success story. You once kindly offered me a fucking makeup course among my suggested trainings. I've had to fight twice as hard and to be three times as good as my male peers to get where I am. I've had to escalate up to C-level for you to allow me to make the best woman on my team the team manager, because she'd been on mat leave before and was still in the age range where another might be expected, so you thought the idiot man might be the safer bet.

... and then you come and try to explain to me that 'gender' is what I identify as or express? And you're making me declare that and write it into your database? As in, the crap I take every day because I happened to choose a male dominated career despite my X-chromosome is somehow my own fault because I identify into it or something?

Sorry, dear firm (not actually sorry)! The shit I take in this job is down to the fact that I have a double X chromosome and happen to look the part. 'Gender' is what makes arsehole men assume that I'll put up with it. That I'm not up to the job if I don't look pretty enough while slaying at it. That means I never get to tell arsehole men that they're arsehole men because, if I did, you'd think I was being 'emotional' rather than 'assertive' and you'd question my ability to cope.

Gender is not something I fucking identify with. I fight it to the best of my abilities on your premises every day when I turn up to work. It's limiting and oppressive and I don't want to celebrate it by putting my fucking pronouns on my personnel file. I don't identify as a woman. I am a woman on the grounds that the sperm that fertilised the egg contained an X chromosome. And 'gender' has been making this kind of a shit experience at times.

I'm not even technically a RadFem. I'm all for people being able to express themselves whichever way they bloody want to. Have penis, wear a skirt? More power to you! I realise that you'll probably take crap for that. And I'll honestly try my best to speak up when you do. But it doesn't make you a fucking woman and you don't know what it means to be one on the grounds that you have some feeling or other. Come and talk to me again when YOUR un-bepenised peers get paid more than you for less, poorer quality work at a lower level of seniority.

So, rant over!

Any actually constructive ideas about how to challenge this crap without losing my job welcome.

Yes, I'm seething. Less so about the stupid pronouns setting (though that's insulting) and more so about the friendly lecture in the mass email about what pronouns and gender are all about.

Fuck off, male HR dude ...

OP posts:
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Coldwatershock · 15/11/2019 13:18

I like those lists that offer things like Baroness and Duke Grin

OnlyTheTitOfTheIceberg · 15/11/2019 13:04

If I am ever asked to state my pronouns - and I work for a wokecorp so it's entirely possible - I'm simply going to say Tit/Tit/Tit's (real name equivalent, obviously). And then go apeshit at anyone who refers to me as 'she' or 'her' because I identify as pronounless, until they're heartily sick of the whole shebang.

HumberHellraiser · 15/11/2019 10:42

This is an old thread from August 2018. The OP is unlikely to still be watching.

However as we are entering trans awareness week, I think this has been resurrected because lots of people will be seeing the pronoun email get dusted off and wheeled out.

There is very good evidence to show that women suffer disproportionately from bias, both conscious and unconscious in the workplace. It is therefore not good practice for employers to insist that women state their sex overtly when not necessary.

Sex discrimination should be tackled head on in any workplace. Pronouns where they are not necessary entrench discriminatory behaviour.

ChattyLion · 15/11/2019 10:25

That’s beautiful stuff OP. Nodding along to all of it. I was trying to find it for you earlier but ran out of time- one of the awesome women on here posted a link to a published paper that showed that there is absolute professional disadvantage for women to be emphasising their female credentials at work. If you look through the previous pronouns at work threads it will be on one of them. They’re asking you to promote structural disadvantage to yourself and other women by doing this.

ScrimshawTheSecond · 15/11/2019 08:13

Star rant, OP!

I've recently said quite clearly and firmly that if pronouns are an issue I will avoid using them. I will be polite and respectful but I won't be forced into compelled speech.

WomanBornNotWorn · 15/11/2019 07:55

I heard a good way of saying no to 'let's all say our pronouns':

'Requiring a person who's feeling confused and anxious about this to make a public declaration about something they may not yet feel confident about is a form of bullying. So if an individual wants to make that statement that's fine, but we don't pressurise people who may feel uncertain and anxious.'

definitelygc · 15/11/2019 03:28

I really think we have to fight this insidious shit now before it gets too late. I work in one of the most male dominated, sexist industries there are. I only put my first initial on my CV rather than my full name and do a lot of remote work under a unisex pseudonym. It also helps that my surname is a male first name and people often get confused. Having to remind everyone I'm a "she" on the bottom of every email would be a fucking disaster. If I got asked to do this I would refuse on the grounds of sex discrimination. Imagine asking everyone to put their religion, age or ethnicity in their email signature...!

Meercatsarecats · 15/11/2019 01:13

Absolutely beautiful rant op.
I think the data angle might be the way to go, I've had limited training on the new gdpr and its so strict where I work that I can't accept paper cvs or even full names of people making bookings.
My contract asked me for my gender. I crossed it out and wrote sex. Would be interested to see how that data was recorded by head office actually.
This shit is so insidious.

Creepster · 15/11/2019 00:47

If the ask I suggest telling them you do not have a gender identity and so your pronouns are your name.

Oncewasblueandyellowtwo · 15/11/2019 00:38

Pronouns are 'pro nomina', i.e. words used in the place of names. Nothing more or less. No metaphysical BS required.from the op.
I've manage now to go by names instead of pronouns, it's a bit clunky but so is a female penis Wink

mumwon · 15/11/2019 00:32

N/A

ForeverFaithless · 15/11/2019 00:01

Resurrecting this because it's happening all over again and OP's rant is so much better than anything I could produce. I really want to send these people the Pronouns are Rohypnol info.

Oh FFS! Pronouns at work. Need to rant!
ErrolTheDragon · 29/08/2018 14:33

I think HR would be a jolly good pronoun and not cause any confusion.

Grin slightly evil genius idea

Lancelottie · 29/08/2018 10:59

I think HR would be a jolly good pronoun and not cause any confusion.

'Shall I ask Laura?'
'Yes, I'm sure HR'll do it. After all, HR doesn't have anything better to do. And HR does need to fill HRs time somehow.'

arranfan · 29/08/2018 10:45

After the discussion about the intervention of the woke pronoun monitor on a, Welcome to Our New Students, forum, I have a modest proposal.

When braced/faced with this nonsense, we declare that as our commitment to internationality, we are adopting the pinyin "ta" for all gendered pronouns.

Mandarin Chinese: A gender-neutral pronoun (re)emerges in China

In recent years, however, there has been an attempt to get rid of the gender distinctions for the third person pronoun and go back to a genderless stage. What is most curious, though, is the manner in which this is being done, namely through Pinyin, the system by which Chinese characters are transcribed into the Roman alphabet. In other words, 他, 她, 它, 牠, and others— all pronounced tā—are now being replaced by the actual letters "ta"!

BeUpStanding · 29/08/2018 10:06

Loved your rant so much it bought a slight tear to my eye! Brava!

I say reply to HR with your rant Grin

redshoeblueshoe · 29/08/2018 09:35

fbsg - genius Grin

R0wantrees · 29/08/2018 09:22

Can you ask HR how they will make this pronoun crap accessible to any autistic employees who may struggle

Also people with lower levels of literacy skills, thse for whomEnglish is a second language.
There are an infinite number of possible preferred personal pronouns.

SlartiAardvark · 29/08/2018 09:18

I hope our place does this - I want to be referred to as "HRH" Slarti on all communications moving forwards.

iismum · 29/08/2018 08:27

It has stuck me how redundant the full ‘he/him/his’ thing is, as they are always congruous aren’t they, they could just put he and the rest would follow.

Yes, I find this weirdly annoying! I feel like they're leaving the door open for someone to say 'well, I'm he/her/zhez - I won't be restricted to using the same gender for every part of speech!'

Come to think of it, maybe that's a good way to subvert the whole thing!

But I think if I'm asked to do this (I work in a university and some of my colleagues do it so it's possible), I'm going to put XX. If asked to explain, I'll say that I don't want to disclose my pronouns and I think it's a distraction from the source of my structural oppression. Not sure how people will try to talk about me with those pronouns (except as 'evil bigoted terf' ...

fbsg · 29/08/2018 08:08

It has stuck me how redundant the full ‘he/him/his’ thing is, as they are always congruous aren’t they, they could just put he and the rest would follow.

Going on from this, maybe you could claim your pronouns are she/him/hers. You are only male when you are the object of the sentence, not the subject...

LadybirdsAreBirds · 29/08/2018 07:52

HotRocker

Excellent co-rant Grin

LadybirdsAreBirds · 29/08/2018 07:51

Errol

Yes.

Places where folk is acceptable:

A folk festival
Scotland (parts of?)
Parts of the USA
An Enid Blyton book

Anyone got any more?

WaddIelikeapenguin · 29/08/2018 02:06

Beautiful rant Star

Can you ask HR how they will make this pronoun crap accessible to any autistic employees who may struggle (& every other bloody person with some sense)

HotRocker · 29/08/2018 00:40

Excellent rant!
I’d change it to a different set of made up nonsense every morning. It would amuse me, then I’d sit and watch the emails calling me flarg/flargum roll in. I’d also have a little bet on with myself over how long it takes for people to get annoyed with it and go back to calling me she/her, or before I get a bollocking for taking the piss. Then I’d have fun watching them disappear up their own arse simultaneously spouting the use of correct pronouns while ignoring mine, while I am all brave and stunning playing the victim card. Then I‘d probably lose my job. Then I’d come on here and have a rant.