should young girls go to prison for "false rape claims"

Iamall I don't think anyone on this thread has said there is no such thing as a woman lying about rape. And we have laws against perjury which provide redress in these (rare) cases - the same laws that deal with people lying over insurance claims, driving offences, etc.

So - do you think women lie more often about rape claims than people in general do about other, non-sexual crimes?

Do you think women who lie about rape should face tougher penalties than, say, a person who lies about burglary?

Do you think all "not guilty" verdicts mean the alleged victim lied, or do you accept that because "not guilty" involves the jury believing "beyond reasonable doubt" that both the man did it, and that he did not have "reasonable belief" in the woman's consent, it is possible for a woman to have been raped, and yet for a man to get a not-guilty verdict?

Do you never read reports of rape cases where the man has come up with a "dog-ate-my-homework" level of excuse as to why he thought he had reasonable belief, which the jury then accepted, and think "hang on a minute - do we need to think a bit harder about what constitutes grounds for 'reasonable belief'?"

In a world where men's "reasonable and honest belief" in consent encompasses successful defences like "I fell penis first into her vagina as she lay drunk and borderline unconscious on my floor", "I hadn't actually talked to her, let myself into the hotel room with a pass-key obtained by deception, asked my mate if I could 'have a go', and had sex with her from behind even though there were no indications that she even knew it was a different person having sex with her", "I only met her this evening, but I'm telling you that she said was into rough sex and I accidentally strangled her (and conveniently, since she is dead, she can't contest my version of events)" and "she was into rough sex so I used the knife under my pillow to accidentally sever both her jugular and carotid artery", you will have to excuse me if I think that actual, properly understood "reasonable and honest belief" is a million miles from the complete bullshit our legal system seems to accept as "reasonable and honest belief".

None of those constitutes a successful defence. I recognise some of them as distortions of the actual defence advanced in cases that have been covered in the press, in particular the second one which appears to be based on the Ched Evans case but is a country mile from the actual defence. And, at the end of the day, it isn't about what the "legal system" accepts as a reasonable and honest belief. It is about what a jury accepts.

Omg I can’t quite digest the level of excuse making on this thread. “They could have mental illness, they could withdraw due to being scared”...how about they could just be a lying bitch who single handedly ruined an innocent guys entire life?!

Stop choosing to explore the 100 little side avenues of this post and focus on what it actually says, if a girl ‘lies’ about being assaulted ‘not withdraws her complaint or suffers mental illness’ if a girl 100% knowingly lies about being assaulted and later admits that/ is found out beyond doubt (it happens way more than you want to acknowledge) then I 100% support that she should take the exact same punishment the guy would have suffered. Same jail time ...etc.

Anyone who disagrees that women should be just as responsible before the law as men are is not a feminist (they’re the worst kind of ‘want to be better than men’ attention seekers)

Can I see the stats you used and the source for the "secondly" point please.

You referenced the 3% figure which is (on everything I've seen) aa figure that is % false reports of reports. And you said it was a figure from % false reports of all rapes whether reported or not.

In a world where men's "reasonable and honest belief" in consent encompasses successful defences like "I fell penis first into her vagina as she lay drunk and borderline unconscious on my floor", "I hadn't actually talked to her, let myself into the hotel room with a pass-key obtained by deception, asked my mate if I could 'have a go', and had sex with her from behind even though there were no indications that she even knew it was a different person having sex with her", "I only met her this evening, but I'm telling you that she said was into rough sex and I accidentally strangled her (and conveniently, since she is dead, she can't contest my version of events)" and "she was into rough sex so I used the knife under my pillow to accidentally sever both her jugular and carotid artery", you will have to excuse me if I think that actual, properly understood "reasonable and honest belief" is a million miles from the complete bullshit our legal system seems to accept as "reasonable and honest belief".

Men accused of rape seem to construct "reasonable and honest belief" out of the flimsiest of materials. And juries seem to buy it.

There is a fascinating chapter in Deborah Cameron's book "The Myth of Mars and Venus" where she carefully analyses and does a lit review of findings on the way men and women use language. It turns out that in all other walks of life (politely declining invitations to the pub, telling people they haven't been successful in a job application, critiquing work, writing reviews of things) men and women use language and non-verbal cues in exactly the same - with circumlocution, padding, caveats, all those things that make normal social interaction comfortable rather than too blunt for comfort. It is only in the sexual realm where suddenly popular culture and the law assume that men revert to some sort of animalistic set of tendencies where nothing short of screaming NO while punching them in the nose will enable them to understand that their advances are unwanted.

I wonder what your female acquaintance's experience actually felt like from her perspective. Or what her reasons for re-conceptualising her experience as rape were. It is, after all, not uncommon for women to repeatedly say no, then eventually (when it becomes apparent to them that there is no way of escaping the situation) lie there inert while the man "gets on with it", and initially tell themselves, as a psychological defence mechanism "oh, it was just bad sex, we all have bad sex sometimes". Only to realise months or even years later (perhaps when listening to a friend describe a similar experience, and realising that their outrage at her experience actually carries over into their own experience) that what they were subjected to was rape.

"I never claimed this. I stated that the rate of false or malicious reporting of crimes will be related to the number of motives there may be to make a false or malicious report, along with other factors. "

And then you listed a great list for reasons women and girls lie starting with "They're mad!!! They're unstable!!!"
And 1 for burglary

Ergo

There are multiples more false rape claims than false burlary claims.

Logical objective man has spoken.

Karya

There is zero correlation between the number of “motives” for a crime and the level of that specific crime.

Are you sure about that...

If Patriarchy claims it’s obvious and a fact that false rape claims are higher than fraud

I never claimed this. I stated that the rate of false or malicious reporting of crimes will be related to the number of motives there may be to make a false or malicious report, along with other factors. That's what I would call a 'no-shit' statement.

I do take your point that I may know women who have been raped who are unwilling to tell me about it. My issue here however is that I'd like to know how exactly they are defining rape.

And there it is in a nutshell (yes I did read the whole post, but seriously, this sentence is just so way-out-there, in-your-face rape apologism). That's why you don't know any women who've been raped. No woman would tell a man who held attitudes like that that they had been raped. None.

Because it's a totally shitty rape apologist attitude to rape.

Women know what rape is. We know from the age it first happens to one of our friends (generally pre-puberty - for me it was age 10, when two girls in the year above me at school got raped in the local park, and my mum had to sit me down and explain what happened to them, so that she could explain to me why my previously much-enjoyed freedom to roam around with my friends was being curtailed - note, my freedom got restricted, not that of the rapist, who, as far as I know, got away with it). We live with it every day of our fucking lives. We live with it when we realise we've missed the last bus and don't have money for a taxi. We live with it when we find (as I did as a student when this happened to a friend) that nothing you can do/wear/behave like exempts you from victim blaming, that even dressed in sensible clothes, cycling home from a maths lecture at 5.00pm, you will still get victim blamed. We live with it when we go on a date with a man who seemed okay and he gets forceful. We live with it when a man we thought was a friend "white knights" us and walks us home, only to muscle into our house and try it on.

WOMEN KNOW WHAT RAPE IS.

When a woman says she has been raped, 97% plus of the time, she is saying this because she has in fact been raped.

You're not just a stealth, under-the-radar rape apologist if you come out with shit like this, YOU'RE A GREAT BIG SCREAMING CAPITAL LETTERS RAPE APOLOGIST.

Ah and here we get to the truth of the poster's angle:

"That the problem, some of the people posting here seem to think that men are all disingenuous liars and that anyone accused of rape must be guilty whether they deny it or not, yet no woman would ever tell a fib under any circumstances."

In response to your A

No.

The studies into this look at crimes reported to the police, not as a % of all rapes. No-one knows how many rapes there are.

Where did you get the idea from that it was as a % of estimates of all rapes and not as a % of reported crimes?

Have you read that report Kier Starmer did into this?

There is a story in the news at the moment where a young girl was hideously abused and her abuser got 22 years.

Internet says
Going to find the bitch and make her pay
Her identity has been revealed
People still saying she's lying

You have no idea the massive massive disincentives to reporting these crimes. And guess what? Most people don't report them.

To focus on a tiny number of false accusations rather than the huge amount of abuse going on unhindered is an interesting focus but I'd say that if it is your focus then your focus is somewhat skewed.

I see these posts are becoming more and more obviously about being "right" and preseting "arguments" to these pesky women on FWR.

"I'm afraid your comparison is flawed" lol so patronising.

You are pontificating on a subject that you know nothing about, bar some anecdotes and your personal view about the general veracity of women and girls. And all the while feeling that you are posting in a wholly subjective manner and presenting compelling arguments.

You aren't and you're not