Breastfeeding, women's bodies and feminism

I hated pumping - it just seemed such a waste of time when I could deliver it straight into the baby much more quickly and easily (well, not for DS1 - he took a couple of months to figure it all out). Neither of mine were interested in bottles - DS1 particularly (we had to wean him onto fruit juice to persuade him to even try a cup - but weirdly now at 8 he only drinks milk or water)

DP bathed him, we took turns changing, and walking from room to room for him to look out the windows when he was inconsolable, making dinners. having showers etc.

Feeding was a relatively small part of looking after the kids once they were past a couple of months, which is why the idea that bottle feeding so that others can help actually feels more like an excuse for other people to 'have a go' with the baby than something to really take the heat off the mother - in fact, when I read stuff on MN, it's frequently used as another stick to beat women - if she'd give the baby a bottle, then the father/grandparents/siblings could bond with the baby.

I don't intend to have another kid, but I'd BF again, and not even try expressing, it just didn't bring enough benefit for the effort the other times - nothing to wash up, I just sit there feed and read/watch TV during the feeds, the first 6 months fly by, and then you can be down to pretty much just morning/eventing/night time feeds anyway, and the boobs have calmed down and don't mind a bit of a feed gap.

I do agree though - knowledge and information is what's missing here - balanced pros and cons of both, so women can make a real evaluation of their options.

And as the human milk foundation say, it's going to be gradual, but if one more woman with breast cancer gets to use human milk, or one woman who wanted to feed but has a phobia of breasfeeding and is helped to stop and feel less guilty, or if one more poorly baby is helped, then surely it's worth trying.

I don't think you'd get many women who would donate their own milk for use by women who didn't want to breastfeed for personal or social reasons

Well, why don't we try? I believe there are far more women out there supportive of other women and who would happily donate. That's been my experience. Maybe I'm just high on oxytocin and the fabulous women of FWR but if we don't even imagine a future that is better for women (and children) we definitely won't get there.

I suspect most donation schemes wouldn't allow you to specify anyway just like you can't specify that your donated blood isn't used to help a sex attacker knifed by their victim.

ineed for donated breast milk to be the standard alternative you'd need breastfeeding rates to absolutely soar - given how low they are currently there would be nothing like the supply. Plus while there are women willing to donate to what they perceive as babies in need, e.g premature babies in NICU, I don't think you'd get many women who would donate their own milk for use by women who didn't want to breastfeed for personal or social reasons.

Or, indeed, screening donors for HIV....

"Donor Milk
In the UK, milk banks used to exist in every hospital that delivered babies. After the 1980s, a combination of funding constraints and the discovery of HIV meant that only six milk banks that had equipment to heat-treat the milk remained. Even now, only a handful of NHS milk banks exist in England and Wales, meaning donor milk has been a precious resource rationed to the most sick, premature babies." From humanmilkfoundation.org/donating/

Interesting, rather than investing in more heat treatment equipment, they scrapped the milk banks and started paying for formula. Almost as if massive corporate interests who stood to profit massively were involved in that decision.......

Even the dialogue around settling babies is so negative, mums who ‘slip into’ being the boss of baby care, rather than the unique bond between mother and baby being celebrated oh yes, 100% agree.

I wish I had some support to bf. she didn't latch properly. the midwife made no suggestion or investigation, she was just was astounded that i didn't have a bottle and supply of formula. Thats in the uk.

Looking after babies does need more support. I had only one. I took less than a year out of career that is likely to be over 50 years. 2% time. 20% salary hit.

Painted has preensted it very well.

I agree with paintedwingsandgiantrings

Also, if human milk was readily available for free then there would be one less way to set women against each other, I guess that's why it hasn't happened. Gotra keep us feeling guilty and in our place.....

reddress I really hope it is true that shared parental leave will 'reset' the balance a bit for us in a few months' time. I don't think it's going to be the absolute win-win I thought it would be when I was pregnant, both because of the feeding issue (I'm finding it increasingly hard to see how I'm going to manage both full-time work and exclusive breastfeeding, though I know other women do) and because I'm going to find it so much harder to leave DS than I thought I would.

Also agree with what painted said.

Even the dialogue around settling babies is so negative, mums who ‘slip into’ being the boss of baby care, rather than the unique bond between mother and baby being celebrated. A baby knows it’s Mum. Of course it does, it’s survival instinct.

I mix fed so hopefully it balances out as neutral - who knows? Certainly not some bloke sharing a meme on fb and then getting all sadface when women don’t bow down in the wake of his facts about something he will never have to do or not do.

I have to say that none of the advice regarding feeding dc has ever felt like it’s coming from a positive place. It’s all dire warnings and how you’re fucking up your perfect child with your selfish choices. And then they turn 2 and you realise they subsist on chocolate buttons and floor food so it matters less.

I'm typing this while feeding a squirmy 1 yr old.

Recommend everyone to watch this. There are anti-cancer components of human milk. It's incredible human-milk.com/index.html

The big scandal I think is that the formula companies have so successfully brainwashed us all into this whole breastmilk vs formula false dichotomy. It should be human milk from mum vs free, screened donated human milk from a bottle. We have a succesful blood donation service, why not breastmilk? It would save the nhs money in the long term. It would be cheaper for all families. Here's a great charity that's just launched that is working towards this (think their focus first is for poorly babies to have access to human milk). humanmilkfoundation.org

There is so little support for milk donation. I would happily have donated milk but there was no support for me to do so. I would happily have donated milk to any woman who didn't want to feed herself for whatever reason, because I want to support other women. There are facebook communities of women who donate milk to mums and babies in need, all without any nhs input, often travelling miles and putting in hours of volunteer work, they're amazing. It is a total scandal no one ever questions the status quo.

For me, I recently realised why I'm so keen to continue bf past a year..it's time I get to read fwr and do stuff just for me. There is basically no other time in the day this is true....

Also agree with paintedwingsandgiantrings.

This is interesting to read as I'm expecting my first imminently and planning to breastfeed, though not expecting to feel immense guilt if it doesn't work out.

I'm fully prepared to change my view once I experience the reality but based on the experience of those around me I have to say I disagree with the idea that pumping/switching to formula is likely to have a huge difference in equal parenting.

I've been reading a lot on the fourth trimester, the need for women's bodies to recover after childbirth, etc. My feeling is for the first six months after birth, it's not just about caring for a child, but supporting women to recover from pregnancy and childbirth. Men can't breastfeed, but they're also not physically recovering from a huge event. When women are on maternity leave, it makes sense to a certain degree they find themselves as primary carer with their partners supporting them. But this is why I feel shared parental leave is so important- to correct whatever imbalance may occur as a result of biology.

A lot of friends who've availed of it have said that despite best intentions, they had slipped into the woman being the 'boss' in terms of baby care- the one who knew what baby liked, could settle faster, etc. After a few months shared parental leave, they felt much more like equal parents, which then continued on.

There are obviously huge economic issues around that- not many people can afford to take it, but many people also argue it's impossible as the man is the higher earner. I am lucky enough to have a number of very good examples of equal parenting in my friendship group: in the majority of cases, both parents were at an equal stage in their career beforehand and went back to work full time after a year. They were also all mid-thirties when they had their first and had been used to sharing household chores etc equally. This shouldn't be the only way - and I'm sure there are many SAHMs who feel they have equal parenting arrangements- but my feeling is the socio-economic side of things has much more of an effect longterm than breastfeeding.

So it comes down to culture, and respect for roles, and the different ways women can be supported and valued. I'm the only one who can carry our child, or breastfeed our child. But we already have areas of responsibility in our relationship, so why not in parenting once they're not picked based on some sexist stereotype? I handle our money and bills, my husband does most of the cooking, I do most of the laundry, we ultimately share chores equally. If he feeds me while I feed the baby, is that so different once there are other ways he binds with her and takes responsibility and it doesn't carry on into areas outside of breastfeeding?

Agree 100% with everything you've written @paintedwingsandgiantrings.

I agree with Painted 100%.

I am, incidentally, pumping right now! But facilitated by DH taking DS for a half hour walk in the pram while I do it. I'm really not sure how I'm going to keep it up when DH goes back to work - I can see how pumping works when you're away from the baby but it's hard to see how it works when you're doing it around actually caring for (and regularly feeding) a baby.

And yes, men weighing in on how women should use our bodies, is nearly always annoying. There may be occasions when it isn't, but I can't recall any time I've ever read a man weighing in, that hasn't caused me a frisson of irritation at the very least.

I think whoever said that had a point though Nutkins.

don't think any medical research will ever be able to replicate breastmilk (what formula could adapt to recognise not just a member of a species, but an individual child within that species; not just an individual child, but what that child has been doing that day, what time it is, what else s/he's eaten, how much energy s/he's expended, whether s/he's about to come down with a virus so needs extra boosts of whatever nutrition might counter that virus etc. And then immediately recognise another child and immediately do all the same calculations and then produce exactly the right nutrition for that child at that time? Ain't ever gonna happen, however advanced the science.)

But I do think that there could be a hell of a lot more money put into making pregnancy and breastfeeding easier for women instead of stuff that men feel is a priority, like artificial wombs.

Juells - my oldest was also extremely greedy and spent a lot of time crying. Luckily for me, he was as happy with a bottle as the breast. And I mix fed with breast milk and formula (attracting criticism from all angles). He still screamed though! I started weaning as early as possible and that's when he settled. Looking back with hindsight, I think he screamed because he was either still hungry or had drunk so much he had given himself a tummy ache. Then the youngest was just so easy. Could breast feed with no problem and he slept the day around. I thought youngest was a true bloody miracle after the nightmare of oldest!

I agree it’s incredibly irritating for a man to weigh in on the issue of breastfeeding on a public forum. It’s like men that love to lecture about the dangers of c sections (I’ve had this from a non medically trained alternative healer who had written a book about childbirth!!) However privately you can’t expect men to but out of feeding descisions for their own child? That said I’m not sure this

If as much scientific effort was put into reproductive health research as is put into designing cars and phones, we would have better milks and measures to offset any risks to women's health arising from not feeding.

Is really a possibility. Medical science is great but it can’t exactly counteract not following biological norms and any risks that arise from it. At least not at this time. Breastmilk will never be replicated artificially. Adult humans will always encounter some risk from not eating what we’re biologically programmed to survive on too. Medicine can help with the effects of this but not eradicate the risk.

(baby refuses formula & refuses bottles).

My extremely greedy baby would shriek and scream with frustration when I tried to give her an occasional bottle, I came to the conclusion that milk must gush out of the breast. I made ginormous holes in the bottle-nipple using red-hot darning needle, and she settled happily.

That's the sum total of my advice/knowledge about breast feeding 😁