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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Gender Critical views gaining traction

62 replies

AusDad · 24/08/2018 06:30

Hi MN! Gender-critical bi man here, first-time poster, long-time lurker and lover of this community, fully acknowledging I'm here in what is predominantly a women's space on MN, so feel free to ignore my views if that's how you feel :) I know many of you are sick of hearing a man's perspective, and understandably so, but I wanted to offer my support and thoughts to those in this community.

Over the past 12-24 months I have seen more and more women coming out against radical transgender ideology. This has been natural a reaction to the growing trans activism madness which has been creeping in the last 5-10 years.

I see women angry and hurt and upset that their words and identity are being taken from them without consultation. They don't feel safe in their spaces. Their sporting achievements and opportunities are being taken away. They see the definition of what it means to be a woman not just blurred, but completely made a joke of.

I see trans people and their allies threatening women both online and in real life. Threats of violence (and actual violence sometimes). Threats of death. Use of the term TERF to silence women who disagree with their words and identities being redefined.

I see the push by many in the gender critical community to get the term TERF considered a slur, and I think this is working. The moment the word TERF is used, all debate is shut down. Women no-platformed and silenced. They use the word TERF as a convenient catch-all for what they really mean, which is "women who disagree with us about what it means to be a woman".

Take any of the hateful tweets or comments about TERFs and substitute the word TERF for those words (women who disagree with us) and the results are scary. These comments and threats are tolerated in society and online because they use that label - TERF. I see some women and radfems owning the term and staunchly declaring themselves TERFs. Some wear it as a badge of honour. That's fine! I the term has been poisoned though. I don't think it's possible to now have it used as a positive label. I think the push to declare it a slur is the right move.

When you dehumanise someone by giving them a label and declaring them hateful and pariahs, it makes hateful rhetoric towards them "acceptable".

I think if we want to fight back against this madness, the term "Gender critical" needs to be pushed more, and stand up against the use of the term TERF. It's an excellent term. We SHOULD be critical of gender. Gender stereotypes and roles should be fought against, not reinforced.

One benefit of uniting under such a term is that many people who do not consider themselves "trans-exclusionary" or "radical feminists" can get behind the term. This includes men. This includes women who don't consider themselves feminists.

I grew up in a household full of women. I've always been a more effeminate man. I'm thankful for the influence of all the wonderful women in my life and I have nothing but respect for them. I see the damage that gender stereotypes do to girls, boys, women, and men. These stereotypes are what we need to change, not our words and our bodies.

There's nothing wrong with being a feminine man. This does not make you a woman though.

There's nothing wrong with being a masculine woman. This does not make you a man though.

There's nothing wrong with not fitting into gender stereotypes. There's nothing wrong with you. Society is the problem. Gender is the problem. It feels like we're doing the exact OPPOSITE of what we should be doing with respect to gender.

It's infuriating to me as a man to see your words redefined, spaces invaded, voices shouted down, and told they can't celebrate their female bodies because it's offensive to others. Women threatened and made to feel bad for their deeply held (and correct) views about what a woman is. I can't even imagine how it must feel for women. One of my male privileges is that I don't get called a TERF for my views, or told to "die in a fire" or "choke on my ladydick". I'm simply called a transphobe, but at least being called a transphobe leaves room for debate. It's still a silencing technique, but not as effective as the term TERF.

We need to be louder and angrier about the silencing techniques being used and the violent language towards women. When they say TERF, we need to reject the term and make them say what they really mean; "Women who disagree with us". Object to the use of the term TERF. Ask them to not call you a TERF and say it is offensive and you do not identify as one.

Communities like this and reddit.com/r/gendercritical are growing stronger every day. Strong, brave women who are sick of being cast aside and having the rights and protections they've fought for taken away. Sick of being forced to say and accept things they don't and will not believe, because they find them fundamentally false and offensive.

I'd wager that the majority of people in western society do not truly believe the statement "Trans women are women". When you add in non-western society (the other 80% of the world population), I'm almost certain even fewer people would agree with it.

I can't speak on behalf of women, nor do I want to. I can only speak on my own behalf based on what I've seen. I can and do however want to do everything possible to support and encourage women to speak out. I'm actively encouraging gender-critical views amongst my friends and family. Advice on how I can continue to support women and promote gender criticism (criticalness?) is always appreciated.

Don't give in to their silencing. Don't let them shame or guilt you with phrases like "your transphobia is literally killing us". We all know it's not gender-critical women killing them; it's violent men. Don't foster their delusions. Don't let them control your language. If you feel uncomfortable or unsafe, say so. Their right to feel safe and comfortable does not trump yours. Reject their dismissal of you as a TERF; make them say what they really mean - A woman with her own thoughts who disagrees. Don't allow their threats of violence and death. Report their hate speech against women. Demand the right to be heard. You deserve a voice and a platform. You are entitled to your beliefs.

I would also recommend letting the men if your life know (if you have any; I know many women choose not to for obvious reasons) that you don't feel comfortable with the word woman being redefined and your spaces, protections, and opportunities taken from you. Talk to men about your gender critical views. Being gender critical is common sense. Men will by and large support you; as men are also sick of this trans insanity. We are just not being pushed out of our spaces like you are. If we were, we'd be up in arms. The attached image (borrowed from the sidebar of r/gendercritical) is a graphic explaining gender critical views and I've found through sharing that it is simple enough for even us men to understand :) Let men know what we can do to help. Tell us how you feel.

Don't give up what you've fought so hard for to those who insist that being a woman is a feeling. We all know it's not. We all know what a woman is. We all grew inside of one.

Sorry for the essay. Thanks if you took the time to read! And thanks to MN for not caving into radical ideology and providing a safe place for women to discuss what it means to be a woman.

Gender Critical views gaining traction
OP posts:
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GlomOfNit · 24/08/2018 17:45

Ausdad, most of the regulars on here have already taken you to task for the obvious, so I'm not going to. Wink I shall just take your post at face value - welcome! and though I think, as others have said, you're going to learn a lot by reading these threads here in this corner of MN, if you want to HELP, please go forth and talk to your RL mates. Talk to your neighbours, your work colleagues. Not because you're a man and therefore people will give your views more credence, but because we just need more people out there daring to raise their heads above the parapet and voice their disquiet. And being bi, your lived experience may well enhance the message and confound people who are assuming that this is just 'another flavour of gay' and therefore nothing to see here, move along.

IDontEatFriedTurtle · 24/08/2018 14:55

Re: the T word, I do see lots of women atrempting to relcaim it. It annoys me because they are frequently not radical feminists and on some occasions would barely meet any minimum criteria for "feminist" which means we are simply buying in to TA propaganda that "feminist" is just another word for "transphobic"*

  • transphobic in this case meaning anyone who disagrees with trans activists.

And feminism has fuck all to do with transgenderism. it's about the elevation of women and penis was never on the agenda.

IDontEatFriedTurtle · 24/08/2018 14:44

The attached image (borrowed from the sidebar of r/gendercritical) is a graphic explaining gender critical views and I've found through sharing that it is simple enough for even us men to understand smile Let men know what we can do to help. Tell us how you feel.

Nice post OP, and welcome to MN. I will have to disagree with that bit up there though^ as it has been mostly nice lefty men who have telling us to shut the fuck up.

Carrrotsandcauliflower · 24/08/2018 14:01

Fair play OP I liked your post. Sounds like your speaking from the heart to me Smile

HerFemaleness · 24/08/2018 13:47

Welcome to the darkside, Ausdad, we have cookies and also copious amounts of gin. You'll need them both.

Ereshkigal · 24/08/2018 13:39

Depressingly we do need men speaking out about this so a big welcome from me and keep talking. Especially to other men. It does make a difference.

YY. Welcome OP.

Ereshkigal · 24/08/2018 13:38

They don't listen to us.

Ereshkigal · 24/08/2018 13:38

I thought it was just a few crazies online making a lot of noise. I was wrong.

I think many people think this. People like you are great for getting the message through to them.

gendercritter · 24/08/2018 12:02

It's practically a rite of passage to have your arse handed to you in some way OP when you join here so do stick around, maybe with a little less of the mansplaining. Wink

Depressingly we do need men speaking out about this so a big welcome from me and keep talking. Especially to other men. It does make a difference.

VoleClock · 24/08/2018 11:54

Are you First Dog on the Moon? (Really hope you are)

ErrolTheDragon · 24/08/2018 11:35

Sorry, I thought that was one of the preferred terms here. My mistake.

It used to be, it won't have been redacted in posts made before the new guidelines so if you've been reading some old threads it'd be an easy mistake to make. Just didn't want you having posts disappear and you're left WTF, what did I say?

AusDad · 24/08/2018 11:28

Sorry, I thought that was one of the preferred terms here. My mistake. This is good. I'm learning already. If the post needs deleting, delete away.

As for men only caring about things when it affects them, I'd say that's pretty spot on for a majority of the sex. For me in this instance it was seeing the damage and hate first hand, and not just anonymous outrage from both sides online. It's too easy to ignore when it isn't right in front of you. Hearing someone speak the words "that bitch's face needs to meet my steel-capped boots" evokes a stronger emotional response than reading it in a tweet.

I thought it was just a few crazies online making a lot of noise. I was wrong.

OP posts:
dianebrewster · 24/08/2018 11:26

We def need more GC male voices. You do not get the death threats and hate the female voices do - the more this happens the clearer the underlying misogyny in trans activism becomes. Please get active on Twitter - add your voice to those of men like @johnnybest. The more men speak out the better.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 24/08/2018 11:13

The fact that TERF always used to be teamed with SWERF says a lot as well.

ie we are horrible witchy prudes, who are hellbent on stopping men having their sexy funtimes

NothingOnTellyAgain · 24/08/2018 11:09

So you became gender critical when you had personal experience.

This is why it is so important that men like you speak. Other men will listen.

The gay community (if you are in any forums etc) are natural allies around this - and I would recommend that you focus on

  1. The clear homophobia of the rhetoric. The regressive nature of the ideas. The situation in Iran and religious USA families shows this - for many "changing gender" is more acceptable than being gay. (In Iran being gay gets you the death penalty, the state encourages transition, fully medical transition ie gay men have the choice of castration or death)
  2. The danger to old school trans-sexuals, drag queens etc if society backlashes when weirdy perves start taking advantge of women's and girls facilities being effectively "open to all" + sports (which is quite obviously unfair) + prisons etc.The facilitation on perviness and worse due to this might well result in backlash against any gender nonconforming men and that would be awful

I think these 2 issues will chime most with gay men? For sure (and I hope you take this the right way), many gay men I know are not really that interested in women - obviously not sexually or for relationships which are the only reason many straight men tolerate us! And there is the general male "don't get it til it's personal" thing which again is less likely - no girlfriend, wife, less likely to have a daughter etc. I am not saying that gay men are all raging misognists obviously! But that from a messaging perspective focussing on things that will more more likely to affect them / their partners / their friends will carry more weight.

It frustrates me that men's violence (especially sexual violence) is seen as a "women's issue" - when it's a society issue and how are women to solve something that is done to them by someone else? And to children and men as well? That's another topic though Smile

PerverseConverse · 24/08/2018 11:09

As someone new to all this I love your post so thank you for writing it. Sometimes I get a bit lost in all the terminology on here but your post was written in my kind of style.
I was called transphobic for the first time a few days ago for objecting to being called cis. It was women arguing against me and it really saddened me that so many women are against women.
I'd love for there to be a very public uprising of gender critical views being shared by both men and women.
Thanks again for your post.

FeminaSum · 24/08/2018 11:05

I've only seen GC women using the term TERF in reference to themselves in contexts like: 'if saying that women don't have penises makes me a TERF, then I'm a TERF.'

Of course, the transactivists now use the word to refer to all sorts of people, including those who aren't radical feminists, or any kind of feminist at all. Just disagreeing with them is enough.

Have you seen this? terfisaslur.com/

theknackster · 24/08/2018 11:01

No idea what to do about 'TERF' but i have found myself thinking 'you're on the wrong side of biology' whenever a TA spouts the 'wrong side of history' line. Biology trumps history for me Grin.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 24/08/2018 11:00

I think some of the language in your previous post might mean that MN delete it.

There is a post at the top of FRW about moderation policy, it would be worth your while having a read if you are planning on posting more.

The post is interesting - it seems that many men (NAMALT) ONLY "get" "women's issues" when they affect them personally. The standard thing of famous men saying "Oh now I have a daughter suddenly I see that the treatment of women and girls needs addressing". Us TELLING everyone every 5 mins is not enough. Our word is not seen as evidence. It is seen as subjective, inaccurate, coloured by emotion. Men only listen when other men talk. And other men only get interested when they have personal experience.

It's all rubbish really which is why feminism has such a long way to go.

ErrolTheDragon · 24/08/2018 10:59

General:
www.mumsnet.com/info/netiquette

Trans additional:

www.mumsnet.com/info/trans-rights-moderation-policy

ErrolTheDragon · 24/08/2018 10:57

Can I suggest before you post any more you familiarise yourself with MN talk guidelines and specifically the extra ones relating to discussion of trans issues. Your last post uses an acronym which although accurate is disallowed, so it may be deleted if anyone reports it. Terms deemed derogatory by either side may be discussed but not applied to people - so, we can discuss TERF here but a post calling someone that may be deleted - same for TIM, I think.

AusDad · 24/08/2018 10:50

As for my peak transing, I had the pleasure of getting to know a wonderful trans widow and hearing her story, and hearing firsthand her TIM ex and TIM coven (can I use that term? What's the collective noun for a group of TIMs?) sitting around talking about the horrible things they want to do to TERFs.

I saw trans ideology ruin a family and cause incredible distress to very confused daughter.

OP posts:
NothingOnTellyAgain · 24/08/2018 10:45

I don't know that women on this forum refer to themselves as TERFS all that much?

I haven't seen it that much in my other online communities.

I think most see it for what it is - shorthand for "bitch" or "witch" (the threats to burn "TERFS" are hardly uncommon), and not "reclaimable" as it was never "ours" to start with.

I agree with you but I'm not sure it's as big an issue as you think in terms of messaging.

The reason people don't listen to us is because we have cunts and the people we are saying NO to have cocks. Simple as that.

AusDad · 24/08/2018 10:40

Thanks Fan. I will absolutely ponder on it. I still admittedly have a lot of un-learning to do. Growing up in a house full of women couldn't prevent all my male socialisation, unfortunately. I fully intend to participate, ask questions, discuss, thank, and most importantly, ask what I can do to help. Perhaps a wordy thread was not the best method to join the community. I've never participated in any feminist communities as I was always told it was not my place.

My only critique was on trying to reclaim the term TERF. I don't think it's inclusive enough to attract outside allies. It's been turned on GC people as a slur to silence. A simple google search of the term shows how far gone it is. I think gender critical is a wonderful term that everyone can get behind, and focuses on the cause of the issue (gender) rather than the result (trans). It also doesn't require that you call yourself a radical feminist. I don't know any man who would call himself a TERF, but other men I've spoken to are receptive to "Gender critical" as a term they could get behind.

But I totally understand some women will be "TERF 4 Life" and are proud. And that's totally cool.

OP posts:
NothingOnTellyAgain · 24/08/2018 10:39

Thanks for the post.

Agree with all the others who have said that how you can help is by raising this with men, sharing your post elsewhere, talking to the men in your life, and if they are sympathetic asking them to do the same. And so on.

Society still listens to men more than women. The additional bonus is that you have far less skin in the game and so will not be seen as acting out of self interest.

Women who are GC are a disparate bunch - we are doing what we can and are aware of what you have put in your post. I think it's fine to reveal yourself as GC in here where you are going to get agreement. Hello and welcome. It would be great if you could take the next steps of starting to raise these views in spaces that may be less welcoming.

Once MEN start to say hold on this whole thing is based on faith rather than logic, is highly homophobic, regressive etc then we will really start to see the tide turn.

That's sad to have to say but it's the truth.

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