AIBU - Transgender family member

Interestingly, my LA swimming pool offers

single-sex changing rooms with showers,

to them. I'd say that was pretty unambiguous.

SportsEngland, to their credit, also refers to sex, not gender

www.sportengland.org/media/4187/swimming-pools-dgn-2013.pdf (p34 onwards

'The intention behind the statement is clear, but they've used gender (presumably because it sounds more polite) when they clearly mean sex.'

You would think so wouldn't you. However I'm not so sure any more. Personally I would ask them to clarify.

So when they completes surgery etc, will they be happy for a male bodied person the be naked next to them in the changing room? I

suspect not - so have some empathy for goodness sake, and consider those people who are there to use the facilities (women changing and child tying to have a swimming lesson). Sorry but they have not 'passed' the first test - thinking like a woman.

So basically his need to pass trumps your sons right to change in the appropriate place and women who don’t want to change in front of a male? He needs to get over himself and be willing to use the male changing area or do what others have suggested and change your son poolside then straight home in a dressing gown.

This is interesting guidance, but lack of clarity in language is again causing confusion. The intention behind the statement is clear, but they've used gender (presumably because it sounds more polite) when they clearly mean sex.

Changing Rooms – If accompanying a child under the age of 8 into a changing room the correct changing room appropriate to the gender of the parent MUST be used.
All children over the age of 8 must use the changing rooms appropriate to their own gender.

www.dudley.gov.uk/see-and-do/centres-sports-clubs/dudleys-leisure-centres/crystal-leisure-centre/swimming-lessons/terms-and-conditions/

Lots of people are assuming that as it's only children having the lessons that they will be the only ones getting changed. There are two school-attached swimming pools near me with the same changing set up. In one case, right before the swimming lesson is really busy with ordinary swimmers getting changed and leaving the pool. In the other, normal swimming continues as just a portion of the pool is used for the lesson.

One of them actually has three cubicles within the womens communal area but that would be very little help here as it is not enough for everyone who needs it to change in private (plus why the hell should they have to).

I'm normally wrestling two unruly toddlers so those small cubicles are not an option. And my modesty is the least of my concerns when surrounded by other women (mainly mums and grandmas). That would change if a male bodied person were suddenly sharing my bench.

So the relative isn't getting charged? Does it even matter then?

Of course it bloody matters! Very few Trans people actually pass in person, - pictures can be staged, voices, facial features and mannerisms are another matter. Women and girls using the female changing room are entitled to privacy, and should not be expected to change in front of any male, whatever their current "gender identity".

My daughters swim club meets at two schools which have changing rooms like the OP describes. Just a large room with benches and lockers. Any male walking in on DD and her team mates would be swiftly dealt with.

This has the potential to be a very unpleasant situation OP, and really upsetting for your child. I would either cancel the lesson, or insist the family member helps your son change poolside (shorts under trousers, then dressing gown on and home)

Why won't the relative use the male changing area? Because they think they are female?

But if it's fine to have male bodies in the female changing area then it is also fine to have female bodies in the male changing area.

Therefore females can use the males.

So no problem right?

I don't see why the adult can just thrown on jeans, trainers and a tshirt (usual mum uniform anyway, and I'm sure they won't raise any eyebrows) and accompanying the child into the male changing rooms.

The adult didn't need to strip off and there wont be anything in there that they haven't seen before.

They can always avert their eyes - or do they think that they will be in some way in danger in the men's changing room (with a child in tow)?

If no other option presents, could your son not just get changed in the ladies? I'm sure nobody would mind a young child in there.

What do the pool normally do? I’ve been to 2 different swimming lessons for kids and they had different rules. For 1 you went in the changing room corresponding to the child’s sex, the other you went in either. As only the children are changing scenario 1 meant male and female adults in with either all the boys or all the girls and scenario 2 means adults tend to take their kids into the changing room which they would usually use so you have single sex adults but mixed sex kids. But you still get pairs of adults with a kid both in the same changing room.

Neither seems to matter as only the kids are getting changed. Does it matter here because the pool normally split by adult sex even though it’s the kids getting changed? So normally all the adult males would take both male and female kids in the men’s changing room?

I’m just trying to get the issue straight in my head.

So the relative isn't getting charged? Does it even matter then? Or are they obviously male? I agree with pp that trunk under clothes and straight in the pool is the best option.

Except that it's very likely they have to go through the women's changing room to access the pool...

I doubt anyone else will even realise

I doubt that you're right.

They aren’t getting changed, but would be in the changing area with women and girls who are getting changed

I'm surprised that this has to be mentioned, it's as if the only persons of importance is the relative. The girls changing for their swimming lessons are not even considered.

They aren’t getting changed, but would be in the changing area with women and girls who are getting changed, due to refusing to use the facilities provided for their own sex.

So the relative isn't getting charged? Does it even matter then? Or are they obviously male? I agree with pp that trunk under clothes and straight in the pool is the best option.

Agree Zutt. There should be a sign saying Pre operative and self-identified trans women will be allowed to use female changing facilities'. Would that be illegal?

Been = need

it isn’t just the risk of assault, it is also that I do not want my daughters to feel uncomfortable, to be looked at naked by males

It isn't something that should be normalised. It's socially unacceptable for little girls to undress in the presence of adult males who are unknown to them, for obvious reasons.

If the pool doesn't provide sex segregated changing facilities, they been to make that clear, then women and girls can make an informed choice about using the service.

Well, they are, Zutt.

This person is not a woman

Word

Ah shit, I meant to say "Little girls shouldn't be expected to undress in the presence of males unknown to them." Not men. I appreciate that no one is campaigning for men to be present when liitle girls are undressing.

This person is not a woman, don’t be disingenuous.

I really don’t see why this woman can’t bring the child into the ladies changing room (as you’ve heard from both her and the pool staff is the correct place for her) and get them organised there. Unless you think your family member is pretending to be trans and is a pervert? Why are you sending your 5 yr old anywhere with someone you believe is not trans and a pervert??

Or is this person simply trans, and can behave appropriately like every other woman in there and get the child ready for swimming.

africat - it isn’t just the risk of assault, it is also that I do not want my daughters to feel uncomfortable, to be looked at naked by males, to have to hide away in a corner feeling upset because there is someone in their space who they know has no right to be there. My smallest daughter is 11 and I let her go and change with her big sister, however if they were faced with this scenario, small daughter would freak and older would be very stressed. Older would try to find a staff member I imagine. To be told that he belongs in there with them ? That is shit, frankly. There will be women and girls in there who have experienced sexual assault, should they be put in this situation ?
Also I would imagine that most of the men who do assault women have relatives who think “he would never do that” . My friend was raped as a teenager by a fellow student, he was popular, handsome, super clever. She didn’t tell anyone for years as she felt no one would believe her.