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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Have we petitioned Stonewall directly?

117 replies

heresyandwitchcraft · 22/08/2018 14:35

Stupid question. I was thinking with the momentum of Stickerwoman that perhaps we could start a direct petition to Stonewall UK just to engage in dialogue with women's groups/set up a public neutrally structured debate?
Does anyone know if we have recently tried directly petitioning the LGBT groups to even just TALK to us? I know there have been ones to the government, but I really think it's more than a little crazy that we can't even speak with the so-called "other side."
Maybe if we get enough signatures to them they can stop pretending this is just a minority concern?
What do you think?

OP posts:
12thGuelph · 26/08/2018 00:49

this conversation is hidden away on a thread meant as a brainstorm, speculation, thinking out loud, of how we could speak to the "other side"

Well, I'm the other side", and it was watching Mumsnet in action that put me there. See, I find TWAW confusing too and I'd be much more comfortable if they stopped insisting on it and accept that we politely treat them as second class citizens. But I suspect not everyone experiences the same intensity of gender identitification, and I decided not to assume that my gender-meh experience is the only valid one.

12thGuelph · 26/08/2018 00:43

even in micro biology it essentially means this side of and that side of.

As I understand it it refers to different types of symmetry, but ultimately one isomer isn't more authentic than another.

BoneyBackJefferson · 26/08/2018 00:23

even in micro biology it essentially means this side of and that side of.

heresyandwitchcraft · 26/08/2018 00:17

You've already done what you set out to do.
You could have asked politely, instead of framing it as a loaded question.
I am quite sure it was deliberate to derail.
It's a bit poor, because if you had decided to start a new thread - other people might have been able to join in and read arguments on your specific question.
Instead, this conversation is hidden away on a thread meant as a brainstorm, speculation, thinking out loud, of how we could speak to the "other side" when aggressive trans rights activists are silencing us and threatening us with actual violence on a daily basis.
I note you have not condemned the inflammatory rhetoric or actions, or taken the time to ask questions about why "we" are concerned.

But fine, let's talk here.

Your Gaul analogy does not hold, in my view, because geography doesn't really apply here, and even from a cheeky Wikipedia, the say:
By the 2nd century BC, the Romans described Gallia Transalpina as distinct from Gallia Cisalpina.
Places are still places, and distinct from each other. They're not the same, no matter what you call them, Paris, Texas is not the same as Paris, France. Additionally: a) there would still be clear boundaries for the greater region of sub-divisions of any territories (which there isn't for the concept of "woman" when it becomes a matter of self-definition and an internal claim of identity), b) the trans and cis areas were separated by the Alps (an actual physical boundary) - which means you're acknowleging that sex is the dividing line here, c) you would have to argue that trans and cis were the same place (which is what you're implicitly doing when you say that trans women the same as women) - when they clearly aren't, d) you would have to start from the premise that you had one region that then expanded, and you re-named it cis/trans, but pretended the whole territory had some kind of properties of the original place.

A better analogy would be to say we have human beings, but they are separated into two by the dividing line of reproductive sex. Humans have called these two groups various names, but they are Female and Male.

OP posts:
12thGuelph · 26/08/2018 00:03

No, I answered the question. And there's only one sense of the word ignorant, the other is an ignorant appropriation of it, unless you believe that meaning can be changed by usage, in which case…

What I'm really enjoying is that you didn't stop to consider whether I might actually already agree with you on anything, I asked a mildly critical question and you all just piled in on me. Because that's how fundamentalists think function manage. Unwatching you again.

BoneyBackJefferson · 25/08/2018 23:31

12thGuelph

So you can't or won't answer the question and just want to throw insults.

You are showing yourself to be the ignorant one, and I mean that in both senses of the word.

12thGuelph · 25/08/2018 23:26

You know how Transalpine Gaul and Cisalpine Gaul were both types of Gaul? I bet Caesar was spitting when those disgusting microbiologists appropriated the term.

And now, I revel in your ignorance as much as you do, but OP doesn't like the derailing, so try not to be so fixated on dissent. If you ignore me I might go away.

heresyandwitchcraft · 25/08/2018 23:22

Let me introduce you to some head-saving logic.
You cannot define a term by saying it's whatever someone says it is.
That's completely unhelpful, circular, and useless to communicate.
Imagine you are defining "woman" to a child.
How will you tell them what it even MEANS to "identify as a woman", unless you root it in biology? Or will you then start peddling in the gendered stereotypes we talked about (women are submissive, men are forceful, etc)?
Therefore, the biological definition is what matters, and sex matters.
Otherwise biological females could be trans women. But they can't. Because there is nothing to transition from or to.
So I find it easiest to save the headache I get from this illogical nightmare of queer theory by saying the following:
Trans women are trans women. They are biological males who identify as women, and wish to live in the feminine cultural/social role. They can be a third category, just like they claim has always existed in history.
But they are not a sub-group of females / women.
Actual biological sex changes are impossible for humans.
Males can never actually become the same as females.
So: females and males who identify as women are not, and will never be, the same thing. Cis is a completely unnecessary qualifier.
We ALL know this.
There is no person on this planet that looks at Danielle Muscato and truly believes she is the same as a biological female. If they say they do, then they are lying to you.
Keep the concepts clear. Acknowledge that they are separate. Give them different names and definitions. Stop promoting an illogical, impossible ideology.
Trans is different from the opposite sex.
Gender identity is a personal belief.
Trans people should be treated as any other human being.
But insisting others pretend to believe something they do not is not a human right.
Trans women are trans women. But they're not the same as women. If they were, they wouldn't be trans.
And that's fine.

OP posts:
BoneyBackJefferson · 25/08/2018 23:16

12thGuelph

And just in case you missed the question

If a transwoman is a woman. Why is a woman a ciswoman?

BoneyBackJefferson · 25/08/2018 23:15

12thGuelph

There needn't be a "default", they're relative to each other.

They are in no way related to each other and the term "cis" has no correct usage outside of geography or microbiology.

IncrediblySturdyPyjamas · 25/08/2018 23:01

There needn't be a "default", they're relative to each other.

Guffaw. Srsly. Can't make this shit up,

12thGuelph · 25/08/2018 23:00

That is also ignoring the fact that in your post transwoman has somehow become the default term and woman has to be defined as other than trans

There needn't be a "default", they're relative to each other.

IncrediblySturdyPyjamas · 25/08/2018 23:00

I'm loving that to tell if someone is cis or not, the cis ones literally have to do all the stereotypes at once. And all the time.

They really didn't think that one through did they?

CertainHalfDesertedStreets · 25/08/2018 22:57

Ahem!

PUBLIC SERVICE ANOUNCEMENT.

Juells · 25/08/2018 22:45

We're all non-men anyway, so don't even need the cis thingy.

BoneyBackJefferson · 25/08/2018 22:27

12thGuelph

Why does there need to be a term for "not trans" because if a transwoman is a woman then why is a woman a cis woman?

That is also ignoring the fact that in your post transwoman has somehow become the default term and woman has to be defined as other than trans

IncrediblySturdyPyjamas · 25/08/2018 22:22

No, cis just means "not trans". But I'm not expecting someone who thinks there's just one stereotype of femininity to grasp this

what is the difference between a 'woman' and a 'cis woman' then? You are the one making the point that you are 'cis' so what is that exactly?

AsAProfessionalFekko · 25/08/2018 19:53

I believed they do not..m

heresyandwitchcraft · 25/08/2018 19:52

The article is actually really good to look at, if only as a document for how far this ideology has progressed.
Here is a quote I wonder whether JF would stand by now:
'I was not born a woman, nor have I experienced life from birth as a woman, so I'm not making any claims for myself, but in many ways I feel like a teenager again, discovering exactly who I am.'

OP posts:
AsAProfessionalFekko · 25/08/2018 19:45

J Fae is full of hot air.

heresyandwitchcraft · 25/08/2018 19:33

A central premise of the gender-critical philosophy is that gender is cultural, historical, societal, and is the product of external impositions.
This argument is usually made because we recognize that stereotypes vary over time and across geography. There may be some general patterns that do not fluctuate as much, but there is no evidence to support that it is definitely due to nature over nurture. In any case, the statistical means for patterns of behaviour are so close, with significant overlap in the populations, that it using "gender" to tell us of a person's sex is not very helpful.
I fully support and WELCOME gender non-conformity, because I think these systems are stupid. But how you relate to gender doesn't change your biological sex.
Gender ideology says it is something innate, which means you have to re-define your very identity according to how you relate to whatever it is we know as "gender." And if you are going to deny the stereotyping that goes on with the gender-spectrum teaching for children, then you ought to do some research.
Here is a quote from transactivist Jane Fae, as to why she knew she was a woman:
...Jane says felt she had to 'invent' a male persona to fit in, but at high-powered meetings would feel like a 'shy teenage girl', avoiding the dynamic males and gravitating towards the few women present.

....

'I've always been very feminine and sensitive. I like doing traditionally female activities such as cleaning, ironing, cooking and washing up. The emotional intimacy of love-making has always been more important to me than the physical side.'

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1252462/Andrea-Fletcher-devoted-fiancee-whos-sticking-man-John-Ozimek-despite-fact-wants-woman-named-Jane-Fae.html

This is why I think you are the one subscribing to sexist theories. The idea that a middle-aged biological male can even know what a teenage girl feels like, or thinks that an affinity to housework somehow confers a claim on the title "woman" sounds far more offensive, to me.

But again, believe whatever you want. I just don't buy into the theory. Sex is my baseline. Not gender identity.

Again, please stop derailing this thread.

OP posts:
FloralBunting · 25/08/2018 19:23

So, what's your point on the thread except to show everyone posting on it that not everyone agrees with them? Which they already knew because the thread is about trying to open up a conversation with an organization. Unless you're repping the mentioned organization and here to engage beyond sneering, I'm not really sure why you're here on a thread about activism you clearly despise.

12thGuelph · 25/08/2018 19:09

cis is someone who 100% complies with the gender stereotypes of the sex they were born with though isn't it?

So you'd have to be in pink 24/7, flouncy dresses, long hair, stick thin blah blah blah.

No, cis just means "not trans". But I'm not expecting someone who thinks there's just one stereotype of femininity to grasp this.

heresyandwitchcraft · 25/08/2018 18:45

The theoretical distinctions between "cis" and "femme" are not of interest to me. By using "cis" you are at least implying that you identify with an indescribable feeling called "womanhood," the boundaries of which are usually explained in terms of the feminine gender role. Both terms are subsets of an ideology that says "I am what I say I am, because I am."
You have every right to believe it, and define yourself however you like. Trans people exist, gender dysphoria is a real thing, and trans people can define themselves however they like. Just like people can follow whatever religion they want. They should absolutely be free to lead happy lives devoid of violence. But there are ideological clashes here. I don't believe in the dogmatic principles of trans activism, just as I don't subscribe to religious assertions. I resent biological sex being minimized, and women being harassed, threatened and persecuted for wanting to define themselves by sex, not gender.

If you wanted to ask a question about how gender-critical this board is - please start a new thread.

But I suspect you're fishing for a specific reaction.

OP posts:
IncrediblySturdyPyjamas · 25/08/2018 18:44

I said "cis", not femme, because you'd have carried on thinking I was a man otherwise.

cis is someone who 100% complies with the gender stereotypes of the sex they were born with though isn't it?

So you'd have to be in pink 24/7, flouncy dresses, long hair, stick thin blah blah blah.

If you are saying you aren't dressed as Barbie all day every day, that makes you what exactly? Just a normal woman?