Discussion of "White Tears"

What strikes me every time I see an instance of racism whitesplained away is how identical the arguments for silencing BAME people seem to the arguments for silencing women wrt misogyny. Not all white people / did it really happen like you said / what about the white women / why are you so angry?

Women of colour have done a lot of the legwork for feminism and rarely get the credit for it.

Yes to this.

Absolutely water. It's something I've been thinking and reading a lot about recently. Just reading a book by Ijeoma Oluo where she writes:

"White women will heap praise on my words calling for the destruction of the patriarchy, and then turn around and ask why I have to be 'so divisive' when I dare bring up race. Black men will praise each essay I write calling out White Supremacy, but will call me a 'feminist tool of slave masters' when I demand that black women be treated with respect by everyone - even black men"

Sadly after my experiences of the way black women and girls in my school have been treated for sharing their lived experiences I can entirely believe that someone might be disciplined for sharing this article.

Qumquat I think you’re absolutely right and it’s something I can definitely recognise in myself- it’s very easy for me to assume my life experiences to be the default, because I’m white. It’s something I’m trying to be very conscious of as the stuff with the TRAs and also Trump getting elected has made me really aware that we need to pull together as feminists. Women of colour have done a lot of the legwork for feminism and rarely get the credit for it.

I think people who consider they understand privilege and oppression can actually react particularly badly to having their own privilege pointed out as it challenges their own self perception as a 'good' person.

people believe that 'good' people (including themselves) can never be racist, so raising an issue of race does not lead to an apology or reflection but to anger and tears as their sense of self is threatened.

Yes, this, Qumquat! I've seen this in action a lot, but I was struggling to articulate it - thanks.

I agree @persister a lot of very 'right on' lefty people are blind to their own privilege. Just look at the transactivists and their allies for examples. I think people who consider they understand privilege and oppression can actually react particularly badly to having their own privilege pointed out as it challenges their own self perception as a 'good' person. I'm reading a fantastic book at the moment called 'whitr fragility' by Robin DiAngelo (a white American woman who gives diversity training and sees it all the time). She argues that one of the causes is the 'good/bad binary' where people believe that 'good' people (including themselves) can never be racist, so raising an issue of race does not lead to an apology or reflection but to anger and tears as their sense of self is threatened. This then perpetuates the silence on racial issues which perpetuates racism. The same could be said about the taboo of naming male violence. It reminds me of the rules of misogyny, to paraphrase: 'the worst thing about racism is it makes white people feel bad'.

They do, but they struggle to apply it to their own white privilege - presumably because it makes them uncomfortable to acknowledge that privilege.

They aren't left wing if they don't at least recognise class and national privilege.

should have said feminist, not female.

Not necessarily. I have many left wing female acquaintances who are pretty blind to their privilege. Sometimes people are very good at seeing everyone else's privilege but their own.

uncomfortable with having their privilege brought to their notice, do you think?

No. If they are aware of being oppressed because of their sex they are probably left-wing, which means they'll be aware of their social advantages based on class, race, nationality, state of health etc.

qumquat that's appalling. I suspect there may be, as well as the general white fragility thing, an added element where white women are concerned, in that they are accustomed to seeing themselves as the oppressed rather than the oppressors and are uncomfortable with having their privilege brought to their notice, do you think?

Agree that “white, middle class” are used by men to dismiss feminists.

However I agree that White women need to do better when it comes to supporting women of colour and take what they tell us seriously. My biggest white woman peeve is US white women calling the police on black people for completely ridiculous reasons- when they know full well that black people are routinely murdered by cops who are rarely prosecuted.

Unfortunately the concept of intersectional feminism has been bastardised by the gender cult.

White fragility is a very real thing. Women are more likely to express it with tears and men with anger. My only issue with the article is it focused on the women only. My whole workplace imploded in a fit of white fragility at the end of last year and it was terrifying to see how many women who would be the first to mock #Notallmen types were crying #NotallWhitepeople and attempting to silence the lived experience of the black students and staff. The backlash against black students and staff simply expressing their experiences was horrifying.

I still think, though, that white women represent an easy target. Why not attack white men?

I imagine that women who have raised the 'white tears' thing don't give white men a free pass either, and will also have talked about discriminatory behaviour by white men or white people in general - it doesn't have to be an either/or.

I have wondered, though, if BAME women may feel particularly betrayed by white tears because they hope for sisterly understanding and empathy from other women, whatever their colour, because of shared womanhood. They may have lower expectations of white men because there is no shared bond of either sex or race there. I'd love to hear from a BAME Mumsnetter whether they think there's anything in that.

I agree. “White” is an insult thrown at feminism by white men who don’t give a crap about black women or black feminism at all. The irony.

OK, well nobody has pointed it out to me before, but happy to add it to the list - and I'll mention to some of the lads when I see them on the weekend.

But no one should be fired for forwarding an article on social media.

It depends if she did it from a work social media account, or if she's readily identifiable as working for that company from her social media account.

I know of people that have been disciplined for Facebook posts because they have a link to their company in their "about" section.

Personally I have no mention of my workplace on social media and certainly no work colleagues on there. It's asking for trouble.

Yeah obviously the poor woman shouldn’t have been sacked.

I remember reading that. I just thought yeah, fair enough. I’m not a woman of colour so I doubt I’d even notice it if it happened unless someone specifically pointed it out, but then most people don’t notice some of the crap I get for having a disability. I frequently have conversations with people when I tell them something that’s happened to me that I found patronising or unpleasant. A lot of the time people say they’ve never even thought about it, which is fine, because I don’t expect them to think about it, why would they? Peoples reactions tend to either be yeah fine, I’ll take that on board, or no, you’re just imagining it. If the latter then I either avoid that person, or if I encounter them in an official/professional capacity, I’ll complain and kick up a fuss if necessary.
If someone was sacked for sharing a mainstream news article they should bloody well create ructions. Getting the boot for that is nuts, and 99.9% of the population would agree, as would the law I suspect.
Sorry for the ramble.

Haven’t read the article yet- will be back when I have. But I certainly think that “middle class” has become the “uppity bitch” of our time. “Woman, know thy place”

My feeling about the original piece was that there was an underlying misogyny to it. We so often see attacks on white women for being racist or middle-class women for being, well, middle-class, but we rarely see white middle-class men being attacked to the same degree. A lot of the hatred of Mumsnet comes from people who accuse us of being a bunch of "white, middle-class Mummies" as if that were some kind of crime, whereas you just don't see that kind of language used against places where men gather.

I agree. “White” is an insult thrown at feminism by white men who don’t give a crap about black women or black feminism at all. The irony.

Dance: "White privilege is a reality."

I agree. I think racism is still widespread, and black people have a tough time of it in a way that most of us as white people can't imagine.

I still think, though, that white women represent an easy target. Why not attack white men? A lot of the time the discrimination and racial hatred is going to come from them - they're the ones who will be sexually harassing black women, refusing to offer them jobs or promotion and so on. But no, let's have a go at white women for crying.

I felt the original article was nonsense, and I'm fed up of how 'white woman ' has become a sneering insult used to shut people up

I agree.

making "made broad, unfair characterizations of white women as a group based on their race and gender." She and my article did no such thing.

That is what the article did.

So far as her friend who knows? If this was the only reason she was dismissed it is unfair.

I agree entirely Emma