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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

If you're concerned about the early transition of children, read this

39 replies

D0do · 18/08/2018 18:12

4thWaveNow, the website for parents and others concerned about the new affirmative approach to gender questioning/nonconforming children and teenagers, keeps an eye on various open Facebook groups where gender practitioners in the US and Canada discuss issues. The link here is to the first in a series of tweets with screenshots from a recent discussion following a query from a parent with a child on the autistic spectrum.

The child socially transitioned at 4 and is now 8. The mother explains My daughter has been dealing with her transition by disassociating herself from the person she was and has created an entirely new identity and birth year. She also has autism which compounds how she interprets reality and deals with life. My concern is for her happiness and well-being! The time for hormone blockers will be coming in the next few years and I worry because she refuses to accept the reality that she is transgender and is insistent that she was born a girl and my worry is that she may be denied blockers because she will not admit to having male body parts/puberty. She says she doesn’t need blockers because she “is NOT a boy and was born a girl so why would she need blockers?”

It's clear from what the mother says that the child was extremely unhappy at four and was fixated on having the wrong genitals, saying 'I want to die' Sad. Of course the mother wanted her child to be happy and medical professionals have told her that affirmative treatment was the way to go. But a child on the autistic spectrum thinks very literally indeed and tends to be very rulebound, because, lacking the ability to intuit things, they look for rules to follow to navigate their way through life. Gender stereotypes are like rules. Children on the spectrum often find it extremely distressing not to be able to follow the rules.

Based on my own experience of raising a child on the spectrum, if that child had been mine I'd have wanted them to have therapy from someone with a really good understanding of autism as well as any co-morbid conditions like depression and anxiety, which are very common because these children find it so hard to fit in and make friends, and they get bullied so much. I'd also have wanted the professionals involved to take account of the fact that for children on the spectrum emotional maturity tends to lag well behind intellectual maturity. I don't feel that any pre-pubertal child has the maturity to know what they are giving up if they go on puberty blockers but children on the spectrum are surely the least capable of grasping this.

The discussion from the professionals, though, is largely about which drugs the child should have and when.

I don't think things would have panned out in quite the same way over here because the NHS does a lot of gatekeeping. Worrying, though. Parents with the funds to go privately and especially to go abroad could be doing this in the UK already.

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Starkstaring · 21/08/2018 10:00

Absolutely. Especially on someone with a history of self harm. Which self-respecting doctor would do that?

Even someone with a high genetic risk of breast cancer (like Angelina Jolie) would be unlikely to nodded through at that age.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 21/08/2018 09:47

I didn't suggest surgery was being performed on minora, StarkStaring. 18 is legally an adult. But I can't imagine any other circumstances in which a physically healthy woman of that age would be offered a double mastectomy

Starkstaring · 21/08/2018 07:19

I don't think any NHS surgeries are carried on on minors. I do know a young woman with a history of suicide attempts, and serious physical health problems who identifies as non-binary. A surgeon in the private sector performed a double mastectomy on her when she was in her very young twenties. I suppose in the same way a surgeon might perform a breast enhancement on someone that age? I would hope they might baulk at performing a hysterectomy if requested but I am not too confident of that.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 21/08/2018 02:39

What I find hard to understand is the willingness of HCP to perform the surgeries. In the AMA thread started by the mother of a trans child, she says that once her DC reached 18 she had no choice but to accept that they could and would get surgery whatever she thought about it. Dreadful situation to find yourself in.

I don't doubt an 18 y.o could and would demand the surgery. What I can't understand is any surgeon agreeing to do it.

People don't typically get to tell their surgeon what to do. They make their diagnosis and then they advise you. You don't get to walk into a NHS clinic and order an operation off a menu.

There's a constant stream of complaints about doctors refusing to sterilize women in their 30s who've completed their family, and yet preteen children are being set on a path to sterility as treatment for a condition no one can be certain they even have. Bilateral mastectomies are being performed on healthy teens. It makes absolutely no medical sense at all.

You do get surgeons who will perform things like labiaplasty for teens but these appear to be mainly Americans. What on Earth are NHS doctors doing?

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 20/08/2018 22:37

How is it effing possible that the medical professionals who are obligated to report this kind of abuse are advocating it? How?

This.

In the case of the parents i reckon it's a combination of Munchausen by proxy, homophobia, gender disappointment and maybe believing what they're told too much. But WTAF are the HCPs and social workers thinking?

thebewilderness · 20/08/2018 22:25

It is the hair bow bit that caused my jaw to drop. If an infant does not want to be a decorative object she must want to change sex? WTF?

MigGril · 20/08/2018 14:39

That vido is scary, I've known toddler boys who love to dress up in princesses costumes like all the time. Good job they have sane normal parent's who just think they want to play rather then be a girl. Same with girls, I mean what toddler wants their hair up. It pulls and is unpleasant, I can't stand it as an adult. So I would never assume a girl pulling out her hair means she wants to be a boy what nonsace.

FoldyRoll · 20/08/2018 14:19

You know the NHS public health ad where there's a guy going to the toilet and whistling until he spots blood in his wee? DD14 & I were discussing how it must be harder for women to notice because of periods. DD10 (who's school is going for Rainbow Alliance status) piped up "but if he was trans he could have periods coming the penis too!" Head/desk. We had a looong discussion after that.

thebewilderness · 19/08/2018 22:13

This is what is being promoted by the transgender organizations in schools. he is just saying the quiet parts out loud because she has been inside the cult bubble for so long.

Voice0fReason · 19/08/2018 21:40

Unfortunately, this is the direction that many of the professionals are going in and there is little room to openly disagree.

TransplantsArePlants · 19/08/2018 10:19

She's a fucking idiot. A disgrace to her profession

IHATEPeppaPig · 19/08/2018 09:53

Surely this has to be some kind of satire? I literally am sat here totally bemused and thinking that this preposterous nonsense can't be taken seriously?

My daughter rips bobbles out of her hair, likes bugs, digging around in mud and playing garages but also likes dressing up in fairy costumes and prancing around pretending she's a princess - what gender does she identify as? She's herself, she is a girl and she can be into anything she wants- it doesn't make her a boy for goodness sake.

Honestly, I'm aghast with this whole
Movement.

IHATEPeppaPig · 19/08/2018 09:46

That video is horrifying.......what the actual fuck?!

Clairetree1 · 19/08/2018 08:40

I've come back to this because the more I think about it, the more I think surely there are laws being broken here. This woman is publicly advocating child abuse. There must be something she could be charged with.

JellySlice · 19/08/2018 08:33

Of course those toddlers' behaviours are pre-verbal communication. The question is: what are they communicating?

Are they communicating an opinion on a complex, socially- and culturally-modified construct?

Or are they communicating an opinion on a sensory issue?

Or are they communicating the beginnings of understanding simple cause-and-effect?

FlippinFumin · 19/08/2018 08:13

Perhaps unpopping babygros is a sign the baby wants their parents to lighten the fuck up.

My youngest son, it was his favourite game. He would unpop, I would fasten, he would giggle like a drain and unpop them again. And on and on until he got bored of that game and found something else to play with.

LizzieSiddal · 19/08/2018 07:49

Horrific and child abuse imo.

QuarksandLeptons · 19/08/2018 07:31

Placemarking

Koalablue · 19/08/2018 07:30

@thebewilderness
I agree. Its abuse and its all about the parents.

NotMeOhNo · 19/08/2018 00:43

Let's trans all the children! Puberty blockers Sweeties for everyone! Darwin Awards for all TRAs!

NotMeOhNo · 19/08/2018 00:37

And all toddlers I know unpop poppers

Then they're all trans. You're still stuck in GCSE biology.

BreconBeBuggered · 19/08/2018 00:11

What in the name of sainted ladydick is that bullshit? Somebody has to stop this dangerous abusive nonsense. I am all for young people expressing their identity, but this is sick.

BlytheByName · 18/08/2018 23:02

I'd read some of this in print but to see a woman actually tell an audience that a one year old undoes their babygro to make a dress is the mist ridiculous thing ever.
I have to say I think there is something very wrong with American society, their obsession with religion for example, and I think that weirdness is manifested here.
I.don't think we would see quite such batshit crap coming out of the mouths of most British people.

Or am I very naive??

FermatsTheorem · 18/08/2018 22:42

That video is just utterly batshit - and that woman is advising people in all seriousness on how to treat their children and rail-road them into irreversible, life-changing decisions.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 18/08/2018 22:28

That video manages to be both preposterous and horrifying. Quite an achievement.

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