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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Artistic Director of Queer Up North speaks out on trans activism, Stonewall and women's rights

337 replies

SanctimoniousMorph · 16/08/2018 09:30

medium.com/@JonnnyBest/the-story-of-my-first-brush-with-trans-activism-and-what-i-learned-3ef13e31fd37

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JonnyBest · 20/08/2018 21:18

OhtheHillsareAlive
That;'s a bloody good point. It doesn't sound brutal - it sounds like something which might have the capacity to wake straight men up a bit. Only something which jolts their complacency will do the job. I like it.

OhtheHillsareAlive · 20/08/2018 21:15

We are working on something to persuade men to complete the GRA consultation and to help them get their heads around the central issue of self-ID and what it means.

Jonny it might be brutal & cruel, but pone way straight men are being "peak transed" is by being pushed on "If transwomen are women, would you have sex with a transwoman?"

Owen Jones famously has dodged the question of whether he'd have sex cunnilingus - can we say that here? with a transman who'd not had sex-reassignment surgery - particularly cowardly of him as he was calling out some lesbians for transphobia when they'd said they weren't attracted to penises (I think that was the story?)

OhtheHillsareAlive · 20/08/2018 21:10

Losing the right to define ourselves as a category, losing the definition of 'woman' as an adult human female - The group who have been historically oppressed, and at higher risk of sexual violence, with the additional risk of pregnancy - due to her biology - her reproductive role. Even talk of this is deemed transphobic - hell, on the last Women's March women were told pink pussy hats were transphobic, and women have been lambasted for having pictures of wombs and ovaries on placards.. transphobic, you see

Brilliant post. It's the thing that disturbs & angers me most - people trying to take away my right to self-define, and to define the category/class of which I am a part.

JonnyBest · 20/08/2018 20:44

BraveandStunning

I saw it earlier and decided not to dwell on it. It's too screwed up. I thought if I get angry about something else too I won't be able to focus on trying to bash out 800 words...There's so much insanity out there I have to look away from some of it so I can focus on the bit that's in front of me. I can't be alone in that.

JonnyBest · 20/08/2018 20:41

BraveandStunning

I am still trying to get my head around shadowbanning. It's only since writing that I realised how widespread the practice has become and how prevalent it is for GC women. Sometimes it seems that two thirds of women in my timeline are shadow banned...

BraveAndStunning · 20/08/2018 20:40

@JonnyBest

This thread might make your brain explode

twitter.com/XXagainstSexBot/status/1030993083817779201

BraveAndStunning · 20/08/2018 20:29

Good post Toe

Your voice is appreciated Jonny but Datun is right, your being a bloke means you have more opportunity to have a platform. I have been here talking about this for three years. I'm still a 'newbie'. I was educated about this on here. Talking about it on twitter got me repeatedly shadowbanned so I deleted my account. Mumsnet is one of the few platforms that women have.

Toe is right; the TRAs don't venture on here much because they can't dish out the threats and abuse they do everywhere else on the internet. Their ideology falls flat when faced with logic and science and the threads remain for all to read: they don't like that so they attack Mumsnet itself. The quality of debate and knowledge on the feminist board is extraordinary. It's a special place, no wonder the TRAs hate it.

The bizarre thing is that most of the women on this board have been standing up for marginailised groups all their lives and not we are being targetted for not simply stepping aside while our rights are being trodden on. It's pure betrayal.

YesSirCowBoy · 20/08/2018 20:26

We are working on something to persuade men to complete the GRA consultation and to help them get their heads around the central issue of self-ID and what it means.

Very much appreciated. I understand fair play for women and a woman's place UK have GRA consultation guides.

JonnyBest · 20/08/2018 20:19

Cheers gendercritter
I've just been having a chat with a (male) Twitter mate about how we can get men more engaged, esp how to persuade some of the left wing dude-bros who are tending to just assume that the progressive team here is the LGBT establishment. We are working on something to persuade men to complete the GRA consultation and to help them get their heads around the central issue of self-ID and what it means.

JonnyBest · 20/08/2018 20:15

ToeToToe
It was great. Sometimes long posts just flow. Better out than in Smile

ToeToToe · 20/08/2018 20:11

God, sorry for that long long post. I think that might be my longest post ever on Mumsnet Grin

Got a bit carried away.

ToeToToe · 20/08/2018 20:10

Jonny, thanks again for writing about this.

Many of us have been silenced on Twitter - either shadowbanned, actually banned or just so piled-on with abuse we can't be doing with it anymore. I read, and re-tweet, and that's about all now.

That's why Mumsnet is such an important space for us - it's not just that it's a predominantly female space - It's that we can, in fact, discuss topics (mainly) freely, and without abuse and harassment.

If you notice - transactivists rarely venture onto the MN boards. Mumsnet is open to everyone, but instead they prefer to shout about us from the Wild West of Twitter - where they can abuse, harass, doxx, and threaten us - even with rape and death threats - seemingly with impunity. (By 'us' I mean gender-critical feminists.) Which is very frightening if you are on twitter under your real name.

Here, such attacks break the talk guidelines. Posters will be deleted and/or banned for personal attacks, name-calling and so on. A poster joining up to post "you're all a load of hateful bigots and transphobes" will be deleted here. A few try, but it doesn't hurt us. This is a relatively safe space for women.

A few TAs have come on to debate, but the lack of reasoned argument is palpable - because chanting "Transwomen are women" will not work, it doesn't sand up to scrutiny. Many posters here are well-versed with political argument, feminist theory, some are seasoned political and feminist campaigners (I'm not speaking for myself here!) - usually, but not exclusively, left-wingers - who have stood shoulder-to-shoulder with the LGB community for decades, fighting for equality - only to have become disillusioned with gender ideology in the past few months/years, because of the bullying by TAs, and the pushing of boundaries and language. Because, when examined, gender ideology is at odds with feminism. Gender ideology reinforces rigid, stereotypical gender roles, 'girl-brain /boy-brain' - whereas feminism has always fought against them.

Seasoned feminists know when they are being shafted - and women are being shafted.

Losing the right to define ourselves as a category, losing the definition of 'woman' as an adult human female - The group who have been historically oppressed, and at higher risk of sexual violence, with the additional risk of pregnancy - due to her biology - her reproductive role. Even talk of this is deemed transphobic - hell, on the last Women's March women were told pink pussy hats were transphobic, and women have been lambasted for having pictures of wombs and ovaries on placards.. transphobic, you see.

Feminists are now being told to put those born with penises at the centre of their feminism, or they're not being inclusive and intersectional enough. Feminism is no longer allowed to centre women.

gendercritter · 20/08/2018 20:09

Thank you for listening Johnny. We do just badly need men stepping forward and saying what we're already saying. It is v much appreciated that you are coming back and properly engaging. It feels a little odd when there are so many other men dismissing what we're saying and calling us bigots.

It shouldn't be like this. There are some properly massive brained women on here Wink But there we go, it is.

JonnyBest · 20/08/2018 19:56

I know, LangCleg, I really do. I feel so awkward about it sometimes because it's so ridiculous. It's so stupid a situation. But yes, I get it. You may have to tell me again though.

JonnyBest · 20/08/2018 19:52

Cheers datun
You know what happened is I read "you have a platform" and was immediately embarrassed and wanted to deflect it.
The great thing about writing an article is that clever people edit it for you and take out all the stupid stuff....!!

LangCleg · 20/08/2018 19:51

So...yes. I've heard you. You're 100% right. Thank you.

Well said. Well done. Seriously.

Datun is right, you know. People listened to what you had to say about this because you are a bloke. How many women bloggers writing about this for the first time have been given a platform by the Speccie?

Helen Saxby? Jeni Harvey? These are the first two women who come to mind, but I could name dozens.

Charliethefeminist · 20/08/2018 19:51

There is absolutely no doubt I'm not being listened to at work on this because I am a woman.

Datun · 20/08/2018 19:50

JonnyBest

Lord. I'm not offended.

It's not complicated. You will be listened to, more than women. You will not be subjected to same level, or amount of, abuse.

You will be listened to.

Listened to.

I'm not offended. By you.

I'm thanking you.

JonnyBest · 20/08/2018 19:50

thank you nauticant
I can tell you one thing for certain: this will happen again
It's bound to. I resolved last week when I decided to wade into this stuff, that when I wrote my first stupid thing - whether on twitter, in an article, or anywhere else - I would try to just take a moment and then suck it up.

It's not always been in my nature to do that (!) - but....gotta learn some new skills here because this issue really matter to me and I am determined not to screw it up.

nauticant · 20/08/2018 19:44

You'll find that people here are pretty unoffended by someone being unaware of something and then going "ahh, I see" when it's pointed out.

This place works well with robust debate and people tend to be open to talk so long as there's no gaslighting, made up science, denial of reality, instructions that men have to be put first, arguments to dismantle safeguarding, etc.

JonnyBest · 20/08/2018 19:20

datun

This is a mis-step for me. I am not going to be defensive when I make a mistake and express myself like a bit of an idiot. I am going to try and face it head-on and own it. I meant well, but when you write something, your judgment can falter.

So...yes. I've heard you. You're 100% right. Thank you.

JonnyBest · 20/08/2018 19:15

datun
I didn't mean to patronise - my apologies. I just don't agree that I have a platform - I'm just some guy who wrote a thing. Yes, a bloke - and I am horribly aware of the fact that I don't get the abuse.
I didn't mean to offend.
Sorry.

YesSirCowBoy · 20/08/2018 19:13

You got the gig because you have a penis.

Now here are three pages of the history of women writing - begging to be heard.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3341433-Examples-of-Silencing-in-trans-debate?watched=1&msgid=80370237#80370237

Datun · 20/08/2018 19:09

It's worth remembering that all I did was write something and stick it on Medium. I am not a journalist. I have never written an article before. It reached an audience because those people with thousands and thousands of twitter followers thought it worth re-tweeting. The only thing I had was a little bit of LGBT capital as the former director of Queer Up North.

Mate. I'm not being funny or nothin'. You're a bloke. It makes all the difference in the bloody world.

Please don't let the thought that you don't have a platform stop you from writing yourself

Yep.

We are. Hundreds of us. Thousands of us.

There are 12 million women accessing Mumsnet. Hundreds of us, thousands of us writing about this.

Women.

I'm not being funny or nothin'. You're a bloke.

JonnyBest · 20/08/2018 19:03

Datun writes:
We can give you loads of info, but you have the platform.

It's worth remembering that all I did was write something and stick it on Medium. I am not a journalist. I have never written an article before. It reached an audience because those people with thousands and thousands of twitter followers thought it worth re-tweeting. The only thing I had was a little bit of LGBT capital as the former director of Queer Up North.

Nobody is more surprised by all the interest in my Medium piece than me.

My message to everyone is
Please don't let the thought that you don't have a platform stop you from writing yourself