Artistic Director of Queer Up North speaks out on trans activism, Stonewall and women's rights

Really great article

I still remember a mumsnetter (years ago!) talking about her experiences of being in the Socialist Worker Party - thinking they's be all comradely and egalitarian. To quote her, "they just wanted the women to make the sandwiches and suck their dicks."

These young woke women will soon see it. Identifying as non-binary, gender fluid or whatever will not spare them from it.

Regarding the potential for abuse of female supporters of the transgender movement.

This has all happened before. The hippie culture and summer of love was heralded as a great thing for both men and women: freedom, individualism, breaking free from strict roles, communes where everyone could love and share...

A few years later a woman wrote a highly revealing expose of the movement where it was revealed that women were largely burdened with all the domestic labour of these shared communities, domestic violence was commonplace and women were hugely vulnerable to the rape/sexual abuse that went on under the guise of 'freedom'.

My information comes from a BBC documentary, so I am happy to stand corrected, but the similarities leapt out at me.

I know! Amazing, right?

If a woman had said that, she'd be hounded as a bigot.

Is that the guy who said 'I see transwomen as real women except for relationship purposes' and literally no one called him a transphobic bigot?

That Robin Green person actually said "Are you a man? No? Then why is your opinion on her hotness relevant?"

On top of the "not for relationship purposes" tweet, I nominate Robin for the award of Person With Fewest Clues on Twitter.

I love being old and useless to men. I was hounded by them from being a young teen. I married, had children young and was a SAHM. I only then had the ex to deal with, other men left me alone.

The thing about mothers being boring/out of touch/not relevant is a product of Patriarchy too FFS and a very successful part of subjugating women, and yet the generation of middle class women who haven't had kids yet fucking buy into it. I did too of course. I thought when I had my first kid, normal life/my self employed arts career would resume within 3 months - ha ha ha ha ha ha. Not that I would be alone for two years with the baby, and largely alone for the next 5, whilst my husband got a new [manual] job to support us because child care would be more than I could actually rely on earning - and it was Mumsnet that kept me sane with all the brilliant women on it at that point. Not to mention in my career if you mention you have kids you cease to have an exciting voice.Not to mention working class women who have even fewer opportunities. The woke brigade haven't got a bloody clue, it makes me so angry, and the whole framing of this debate that has become about those nasty OLD women [see women over 35] who are transphobic bigots and go on about that nasty exclusionary thing called Sex [Owen Jones thrown in the 'old' thing quite a lot. I really, really don't want trans people to feel erased. But when TRAs call 'cis' women privileged and not to centre sex....aaargh. Sorry will stop ranting now!

Exactly Hills - Toxic Masculinity is so pervasive and they can't even recognise/name it.

I linked to this thread but he said he didn't trust MN

Yeah, boring mums, what would they know about being a woman?

I've come to the conclusion that they're thick Saul. Or (and this is a kinder theory) that this is a new twist on the cool girl phenomenon - they think they can identify out of female oppression. They're kicking against previous generations and see us constrained by our gender boundaries while they are all woke and free.

This.

I remember one issue that always followed Harriet Harman.

YY.

Of course what will happen in their lovely woke lefty circles is that the men will abuse and use them just as they always have done

Or they'll have babies, and see what it's really like to be bound by biology and treated as if the most important thing about you is that you're pregnant. And that because you're pregnant, your body is public property.

And that is oppressive to men too - why can't men wear dresses/make up/heels/love cooking/talk gently/be caring/whatever it is that makes them feel like a woman,and still feel free to call themselves male/trans [but not indistinguishable from a natal woman?] The TRA movement is so regressive in terms of gender roles and why can't so many people bloody see it?

Hear, hear!

The problem is restrictive models of masculinity which men force other men into - violently and coercively.

Generation sensible had no vote in the EU ref, they did not get a vote in the last two GEs. In three years time Self-ID, May, Corbyn and Brexit will be old news, millenniels will stand for MP. They will have younger and middle aged voters looking at their tyrant type student politics history, that will not go away. I remember one issue that always followed Harriet Harman.

Hm, but a lot of 'generation sensible' will be too sensible (not to mention, be doing demanding courses which don't leave enough time) to engage with student politics. As has always been the case, tbh.

Of course what will happen in their lovely woke lefty circles is that the men will abuse and use them just as they always have done. But by the time they realise they've been had, there'll be a new generation along, telling this lot they got it all horribly wrong.

Millennials have been a bit of a joke in the press and you can see why when they are jumping all over this.

Generation sensible are starting university now as the minnelials leave - stuck with the previous students policy, no platform, safespace and wrong thought totalianism, they have been swept along via millennials grooming them on YouTube, it will not end well for millenniels.

I've come to the conclusion that they're thick Saul. Or (and this is a kinder theory) that this is a new twist on the cool girl phenomenon - they think they can identify out of female oppression. They're kicking against previous generations and see us constrained by our gender boundaries while they are all woke and free.

Of course what will happen in their lovely woke lefty circles is that the men will abuse and use them just as they always have done. But by the time they realise they've been had, there'll be a new generation along, telling this lot they got it all horribly wrong.

I think the weirdest thing about all this is the number of feminists [many of whom call themselves non-binary] who simply don't understand the regressive principles behind 'feeling like' a woman. Also the same people who often claim rad fems are 'reducing women to their genitals' They've got it all back to front. The whole point is that gender roles are oppressive and designed to subjugate women. The majority of women don't actually 'identify' with those gender roles, and yet still struggle with discrimination/subjugation based on their SEX, not which 'gender' they identify as. Twitter is so frustrating because this simple premise of the rad fem argument is never understood, and as soon as it is understood, someone else come along to say that rad fems are reducing women to their genitals and are being really regressive. They just don't seem to see that gender roles themselves are regressive, and that 'identifying' as female means identifying with gender roles that women have been fighting to be disassociated with for so long. And that is oppressive to men too - why can't men wear dresses/make up/heels/love cooking/talk gently/be caring/whatever it is that makes them feel like a woman,and still feel free to call themselves male/trans [but not indistinguishable from a natal woman?] The TRA movement is so regressive in terms of gender roles and why can't so many people bloody see it?

I think Jonny it is not just that you are a bloke, it is because of your affiliations with the origins of Stonewall - it is also because so many high profile gay men affiliate the TRA movement with the gay rights struggles of the 80s, and therefore refuse to see that this movement impacts on women. The irony when it impacts on lesbians especially.

Nick Ferrari on LBC doing a phone in right now. Well worth catching up on the repeat.

I kind of feel his reaction was like putting his hands over his ears and singing "I can't hear you" loudly. Partly caused, perhaps, by an unwillingness to explore it further.

Yes I've seen this with others. The cognitive dissonance was too much so he had to shut you down.

I think the bloke you're thinking of LangCleg is Robin Green

His Twitter handle is @greenrd

Hope this helps

twofalls
It's hard to change your mind I think, esp when it's on an issue bound up with emotion and identity. You planted a seed - as you say, Time needs to do its work now...

Thanks Johnny. You are the same age as him so you probably have a mutual understanding of how important stonewall has been. I do hope we reconnect in the future as this whole thing evolves over time. I kind of feel his reaction was like putting his hands over his ears and singing "I can't hear you" loudly. Partly caused, perhaps, by an unwillingness to explore it further.

twofalls I am so sorry to hear this. I do hope your friend will find his way back to you in time. I can understand the Stonewall issue. It does feel very odd to be criticising them - I'm a gay man of 48 who has benefited directly from Stonewall's great work in the past on equal age of consent especially.

I'm really sorry to hear this news.