DM: Women avoiding new gender neutral toilets in the home office because men can't close the door

Universities are dancing to the tune of Stonewall and the trans agenda. They are happily putting female students in vulnerable positions, including sharing changing rooms and (potentially, when accommodation is oversubscribed) twin bedrooms with self-IDed women (the sort with penises). If you’re unhappy to find yourself sharing a bedroom with a penis-owner, then presumably it’s off to the re-education camp for you. Gender neutral toilets are universities badge of wokeness, and heaven help any transphobic women that complain about them or what goes on in them. Not to mention that harassment of female students is a constant and pervasive aspect of campus culture now, and universities do bugger all about it (unless it ends up in the press).

And why can't a university do anything about a harassing and intimidating mini-mob ?

Have they suspended British law and declared themselves some kind of independent territory ?

Someone on another thread said that they used the gender neutral loos on a university open day. A group of men, and at least one trans woman, had moved all the sanitary bins out of the cubicles, lined them up, and were standing in front of them. They were demanding that anyone wanting to use the bins showed them what was in her hand. The MNer tried to complain to staff but was told they could do nothing

What was their cunning plan ?

Intimidate women into hiding all signs or reminders of periods cos female reproductive organs doing their thing is triggering and transphobic ?

Ditto, Helena. But an 18-year female student is more likely to be intimidated than we are. The poster on that thread said that the prospective applicant decided not to apply to that university because of the incident.

" They were demanding that anyone wanting to use the bins showed them what was in her hand"

If someone asked me to do that they would get the used sanpro rubbed in their fucking face!!

Someone on another thread said that they used the gender neutral loos on a university open day. A group of men, and at least one trans woman, had moved all the sanitary bins out of the cubicles, lined them up, and were standing in front of them. They were demanding that anyone wanting to use the bins showed them what was in her hand. The MNer tried to complain to staff but was told they could do nothing.

It's not about cost-saving, it's about organisations being too cowardly to say that people with penises can't be women.

Gender neutral & unisex loos ... like mixed hospital wards are a nasty nasty nasty idea. Why is cost saving always used as a way to further dehumanise people? Why do we stand for it??!! ... eewwwwwwwwww!!

It costs money to deal with sanitary products bins so I can see an incentive to go along with there are not needed and put onus on women to deal with. Historically I believe employers argued it would cost to much to provide separate female toilets

Which leaves a new fig leaf for women. We won't use your stupid unisex loos if we can't have the dignity and privacy to dispose of sanitary products properly.

Money does motivate.

Loos constantly being bunged up with flushed unflushables is expensive. We don't have to wait until a plumber is needed. We just need to make sure they know the relentless nature of some unintended consequences caused by any hand wafting away of female priorities.

They can be given an endless stream of reasons to start to view this as a really expensive bit of virtue signalling, whose costs can only spiral one way. Just to get to the momentus day where they have the most expensive bogs in the world, but productivity is dropping cos a large chunk of the staff are still sloping off to pee somewhere else instead.

The enemy's biggest strength is on display when people feel they can't say what is really bothering them. It is also the other side's biggest weakness. Because it means them having to deal with raking up a constant flow of fig leaves, which is outrageously expensive in the context of constantly tweaking and refitting facilities. So they need to get sent the message loud and clear.

Autumn Is Coming

.... for the benefit of the managers, and their growing heap of invoices.

I think that's a workplace thing not a general thing

www.hse.gov.uk/contact/faqs/toilets.htm

Lighthouse - the gender neutral toilets I used in a local art gallery definitely did not have wash basins that were sex-segregated or situated within the cubicle, so I assume that is not a requirement.

@NameChangedAgain18

I thought there was something in the current law that allowed for us to have sex segregated basin areas as well?

obviously it depends on the total provision - my workplace has separate facilities and and facilities like the ones you describe. there's always a queue at the separate facilities. So annoying.

Schools have to have sex segregated toilets. Elsewhere, you can have unisex toilets as long as they all have floor to ceiling walls and are not just cubicles.

@MagicMix

I'd be asking for a camera to be put in that corridor!

I can well believe £8k for signs. I work somewhere where £2k was spent on a label for a work of art.

I think if they have recruitment and retention issues

It'll be women who quit, so the bosses won't care.

I thought it was the law that staff had to have sex-segregated toilets?

No, they are not.. They are little corridors off the main corridor. You have to go through a door to access them (this is the door marked 'women' or 'men').

Thanks bd67th - I've been trying to work out which thread I read it on and driving myself mad!

@MagicMix

the key question there is if the corridors are clearly visible (which they should be, for safety reasons).

a PP says they think the DM are making it up about £8k on signs. Nope. Ever seen how government offices waste money?

men who are so outraged that they are expected to shut the door when having a piss that they would rather go back to their men's toilets where they can basically walk up to the wall, piss against it and walk out again, without those pesky women nagging them.

I don't think it's that's necessarily what's motivating them.

Single sex loos have been the norm for decades. Each sex will have evolved, learned & practiced (to the point of "auto-pilot") sex-specific unspoken rules as per expected norms in the toilets.

I doubt the 2 groups have beautifully matching rules.

If I heard somebody cry in the loo I'd say "you alright love ?" and then either hang on till they came out, or scuttle off and pretend it didn't happen. Depending on exactly how senior the strangled voice saying "yes, fine, it's nothing" was.

Based entirely on anecdote, a couple of men have expressed relief that - on the rare occasion they have shed tears in the bog - the unknown colleague they heard come in (and promptly leave) followed the unspoken rule to go completely deaf with a bladder of steel, in the face of much stifled sniffles.

So I think what they want is basically what we want. The comfort-zone & dignity they get from the familiar, single sex setting. But feel even less free than we do to express that. It would all too easy for t'other side to jump on that and humiliate them with "Ohhhh look at ickle wickle John, he's scared of the GIRLS ,"

The men I am angry with are the ones pushing this, embracing this and picking to bits anybody who doesn't like it.

Some of them want this despite having no inclination to ever go from Mark to Mandy. They just get off on arm twisting women into being really uncomfortable when their knickers are down.

Or worse, they see an opportunity to indulge in unlovely acts of opps didn't mean for you to see that ! Oh well, shit happens. No biggie. No crime. No rap sheet. Just an accidental, belated zipping up of flies on exit.

Those are the ones that worry me. And at the moment, they are the ones with the power to push this through despite so few being in favour.

NameChangedAgain18, it was @clairetree1 who faced men gatekeeping the sanbins.www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3322488-GRC-and-Toilets?msgid=79857003

They are planning to change our work toilets to unisex by simply changing all the signs. I was OK with it because the women's toilet is a little corridor with three toilet rooms off it, proper rooms with full walls and door each with its own sink, mirror, bin.

I'm not sure if the men's have urinals in the communal space, never been in there obviously. But I don't think so, because they clearly said all that would need doing was changing the signs (and I don't think they planned to spend 8 grand on that).

So it should be fine, but it never even occurred to me that men might not close the doors... I don't really think the men I work with would do that. They all seem reasonably civilised. But I suppose you never know. I certainly can't complain at this stage on the basis that this might happen.

I think the people producing fig leaves (so far open doors, sanitary products bins) will just keep producing new fig leaves as old ones are raked up.

It costs money to deal with sanitary products bins so I can see an incentive to go along with there are not needed and put onus on women to deal with. Historically I believe employers argued it would cost to much to provide separate female toilets.

Clearly Home office employers aren't happy but I expect they won't back down as they've spent the money now.

I think if they have recruitment and retention issues - they might look into changes same with bars and clubs - if it has an economic impact they might change back to single sex.

Perhaps the downfall of all this 'gender neutral toilet' nonsense will actually eventually be orchestrated by men who are so outraged that they are expected to shut the door when having a piss that they would rather go back to their men's toilets where they can basically walk up to the wall, piss against it and walk out again, without those pesky women nagging them.

Having cleaned the men's toilets frequently at the place I used to work at, I was utterly, utterly horrified at just their disgustingness. Piss everywhere. Snot on the walls...hurl. These were the adult male teachers and staff toilets as well, not just the kids. I did the boys toilets too and they were about the same! I hate to share on that fact alone, but WHY leave the doors open? Is it a domineering/voyeurism thing? Do they get off on it? Is it habit from trying to solicit some male fun time? Or is it because they're so used to open urinals they just don't think to close the bloody door?