You don’t have to have gender dysphonie to be trans.

Sorry, I’m going on my own tangent here, but sadly, I think if I did try this it would probably work. It’s a struggle enough as it is to get treatment for mental health problems, and any excuse to see me out the door would probably be welcomed. Having been churned through the mental health system, I’ve seen how serious symptoms and life damaging problems get conveniently ignored because of a lack of resources to deal with then, so a nice woke excuse to dismiss people and get them off the caseload would be quite handy. Unfortunately, the result would probably be me ending up dead, and that probably goes for a lot of other people as well.

HotRocker you are a woman. Women come in all shapes and sizes and make many life choices/ cope with many life circumstances. The only thing they don’t have is a penis.

But yes, I have been depressed because of being in an abusive relationship and going through litigation to keep DC safe. Women are statistically more likely to be in such a situation. Maybe I just needed to identify out of it, and my depression was gender dysphoria at being a woman copping the crap for being female.

Trans can include anyone who doesn’t identify with the gender assigned at birth

In other words, anyone who doesn't accept the gender stereotypes associated with their sex observed at birth.

In my office, there are blokes who do flexible hours for childcare, a lesbian, several women who aren't interested in having kids. And we all work in tech. So that's all of us under the trans umbrella then?

I had a lot of respect for Eddie Izzard when he was doing the "man in a dress" thing - that was proper gender nonconformity - but saying "I have girl genes because I like high heels & getting my nails done" comes back to perpetuating tired old misogynist stereotypes, as does Pips Bunce claiming that wearing dresses & makeup makes him "Pippa" & gives him access to women's facilities. Like Travis Alabanza, who bullied his way into women's changing rooms, they're men, and what they choose to wear doesn't change that. People with actual sex dysphoria deserve help & a safe third space, but "gender" does nobody any favours & would be better disposed of. If the trans lobby were campaigning for men & women to be able to present however they choose without judgment, while recognising that "woman / girl" and "man / boy" are just descriptors for females born with XX chromosomes & males born with XY chromosomes, respectively, I think most of MN would be right behind them.

Thanks hangingaround I am on my phone, so struggling to do quotations. Bronner clearly confuses symptoms and side effects in that statement.

Hormones have been used in contraceptives, HRT, preventing miscarriage (DES - disastrous results) - none of these trigger gender dysphoria or make one more or less a women. One simply is a woman if one is born female. All of these hormonal treatments were/are for biological issues around being female - preventing pregnancy, easing the symptoms of menopause, preventing miscarriage (progesterone is used now).

I guess the question is whether you see hormonal treatments for gender dysphoria as simply an extension of this, to change the biological processes completely. (Not possible as adults will always have the physical markers of sex, so you have the question of transing children - highly ethically dubious)

Or whether you see some hormonal interventions (such as to prevent/promote pregnancy) as justified, but not others, depending on a range of factors (a woman’s decision to use hormonal contraception does not impinge on anyone’s same sex space, for example).

Or whether you take the view that hormonal treatments are about (mostly male) power and control over women and financial gain for the pharmaceutical industry, and do damage to the environment and eco-system of the planet?

That could all be clearer, I know, I am trying to work out my own thoughts on this.

I might just ditch the meds, tell my psychiatrist to stop pathologising me and demand they except me as my true, authentic self, and next time they section me and lock me in a psychiatric ward I’ll accuse them of being transphobic.

Genuine question: Are same sex hormones ever prescribed to someone with gender dysphoria to alleviate it?

Yes, Kallman syndrome. From en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kallmann_syndrome "Early treatment as adolescents can help with psychological well being of people with KS/CHH". But it is not classified as gender dysphoria as the distress comes from an intersex condition.

As time passes "gender dysphoria" seems to be morphing into an umbrella term. I wouldn't be surprised to see it embrace cross-dressers and your beardy bloke "I identity as trans" characters in the near future.

Oh yeah, and I’ve suffered crippling mental health problems, including severe depression, self harm and almost successful suicide attempts throughout my life. Do I need to go back to my psychiatrist and tell them that their bipolar diagnosis is incorrect, and actually it’s just gender dysphoria?

We've all seen the trans umbrella. We all know dysphoria is not a requirement to be counted under the umbrella definition.

I'm all for people being free to express as they wish. I'm even all for them being able to express misogyny if they are misogynists.

What I'm not all for is male people having access to women's rights, spaces and services. Neither expressing in a non-conforming way nor being dysphoric means you can, or have, changed sex.

The issues around suicidal feelings tend to stem from society. Internally you know who you are, but you know society doesn’t accept you.

Can you explain a bit more about how society shows this non-acceptance?

I don’t get it, if we are talking about gender dysphoria, rather than sex dysphoria, I probably have that. I feel horribly uncomfortable in girly clothes, can’t stand the feeling of make-up on my face, can’t bear dainty shoes or high heels, The thought of a pampering spa weekend makes me want to puke, I have no sexual or romantic interest in men, and despite being a mother, I’m not the slightest bit clucky or maternal, in fact I hate the word mother when applied to me, and prefer to use parent instead, although I’ve never created a fuss when people use mother, as it is technically true. I alleviate this by wearing what I want, indulging in the activities that I enjoy, having relationships with women rather than men, and parenting, perfectly adequately, in my own way. I’ve never once thought that I might be in the wrong body, or felt the need to call myself a man. I certainly have no desire to use male facilities or insist everybody refer to me as male or expand the definition of man to include me.

Does this mean I’m really trans? I get misgendered reasonably frequently, I’ve copped shit loads of abuse, from men mainly, for looking and dressing the way I do, and I certainly feel oppressed when I go clothes shopping, because finding anything I want to wear in a size that fits a 5.2 large breasted woman is challenging to say the least.
All these years I just assumed that it’s society’s definition of what a female should be and look like that was ridiculously narrow and unrealistic, but am I wrong? Have I not actually been a real woman all this time but didn’t realise it?

Regarding medical treatments causing dysphoria, I didn’t say they do

You said

Interestingly, you can trigger gender dysphoria in a cis gendered individual with certain medications.

Interestingly, you can trigger gender dysphoria in a cis gendered individual with certain medications. For example, prostate cancer treatments lower testosterone levels and men feel the same complications such as depression that gender dysphoria brings.

Is that right?

Most women at some point in their lives have had their hormones majorly fucked around with, either whilst pregnant, or whilst taking hormone pills, being injected with hormones or having hormones placed up their fanny whilst trying to avoid getting pregnant (unfortunately women cannot identify out of avoiding pregnancy - that pesky biology is a fucker isn't it?)

In all my years of hormonal contraception I suffered many side effects, including yes, some on my mental health. At no point was I told it could cause gender dysphoria though.

What about women who take Tamoxifen or have Zoladex injections for breast cancer? Are they at risk of developing gender dysphoria as well? Or is it just men?

Bronners if one of the symptoms people with GD experience is depression, what about anti-depressants and psychotherapy (which is what I had for depression). There is enough historical evidence to show that long-term prescription of synthetic hormones can increase the risk of fatal side effects. Why is therapy towards self-acceptance not a treatment for GD, alongside advocacy to dismantle gender stereotypes?

I don't think they are. It would be fascinating to know whether any research has been done. Anecdotally, I read an account of a women with GD who went on the pill for heavy periods and her GD disappeared, along with her depression. Surely same sex hormones would be safer and more effective than cross sex if hormonal treatment is required?

I don't think most transtrenders would want to be 'cured' and lose their special status however

A person without GD, is not likely to transition, and they use the facilities they are most comfortable with, the ones specific to their birth sex.

A lot of people in that position find outlets for their feelings, dressing at home or going to specific groups for example. Manchester has one that meets on a Wednesday in the Village.

Trans folk who are transitioning are very conscious of their appearance and don’t generally want to draw attention to themselves, unless they pass very well we’ll avoid certain situations or alternatives. Gender neutral loos are very sparse, so it’s not the easiest way to live.

The issues around suicidal feelings tend to stem from society. Internally you know who you are, but you know society doesn’t accept you. The terrifying prospect of not being able to be you and instead putting up a fake persona each and everyday is tough. I really wasn’t able to live my life until I was able to discard that pretence.

Regarding medical treatments causing dysphoria, I didn’t say they do, they just can mimic some of the symptoms we experience. When I started HRT, it didn’t take long for me to feel much better in myself, around six weeks. My starting point was a normal hormonal level for a male and is now a normal level for a female. Adding more testosterone would not have helped and could actually have induced a testosterone induced rage.

Starkstaring that is what I wondered when I wrote my post.

Trans can include anyone who doesn’t identify with the gender assigned at birth

Most feminists then.

Genuine question: Are same sex hormones ever prescribed to someone with gender dysphoria to alleviate it?

men feel the same complications such as depression which gender dysphoria brings

A side effect in common does not mean that medication can trigger dysphoria. Women on hormonal contraceptives can suffer depression as a side effect - does this mean they have gender dysphoria? No, it means medicines which effect hormones can trigger depression.

Trans can include anyone who doesn’t identify with the gender assigned at birth, whereas gender dysphoria is specifically the medical diagnosis for those in which that incongruence causes distress.

So all these trans people who are so distressed that they are going to kill themselves if women don't do as they say, but don't have any medical intervention: do they have gender dysphoria or not?

Most trans folk live their lives happily without medical intervention as they are able to find a balance in their lives.

Does that 'balance' involve using female spaces? Do you think it should?

Trans can include anyone who doesn’t identify with the gender assigned at birth, whereas gender dysphoria is specifically the medical diagnosis for those in which that incongruence causes distress.

Most trans folk live their lives happily without medical intervention as they are able to find a balance in their lives.

Interestingly, you can trigger gender dysphoria in a cis gendered individual with certain medications. For example, prostate cancer treatments lower testosterone levels and men feel the same complications such as depression that gender dysphoria brings.

Treatments for those with severe GD, HRT and surgeries, alleviate those problems. Science suggests this may be due to the way the trans person’s brain is structured.

Following on from my own transition, I’ve found my own incongruence and related issues have now been resolved and I no longer consider myself to have GD.

I just don’t get it. Can any trans person who is not gender dysphoric enlighten me?

Oh yes. I would like to be enlightened on this as well. But I won't hold my breath.