Ladies bathrooms and trans acceptance

I honestly believe societal attitudes change as the generations go on

Not always for the better though. I am shocked at the level of racism that is now tolerated in the name of 'free speech', and the growth of the alt-right. I don't think it would have happened 10 years ago. I think society has divided itself into sections, whereas before we were maybe a little less tolerant overall, but there were fewer extremes. Now we have people openly flaunting their right-wing credentials while in the other corner we have people talking about how it's literal violence to misgender your pet. There just doesn't seem to be a consensus anymore. I go on twitter and on one hand, I see people openly saying that all immigrants should fuck off back home and I then scroll down and see someone saying how it's so problematic that we call neo-nazis thick because that's ableist and shows our educational privilege. It's just a bit mad imo.

What I'm asking is, what if the author makes a valid point? What if one day we do look back and see we were once 'out of touch' with the modern world?

Do you think that in the future we'll realise that humans can change sex OP?

Cos that's the only thing that makes welcoming the people meeting the stonewall definition of Transwomen into the ladies loos make any sense

I honestly believe societal attitudes change as the generations go on

Of course. But that implies that it's always a positive progression. Historically, no, sometimes societal periods and fads are very negative for that society, not positive. And as a pp said, that also implies that people should be passive, fatalistic observers believing that others know best, rather than using their own sense of right and wrong, and standing up for what is fair and right.

I think this is probably the last hurrah of misogyny. The trans movement has exposed how shallow the 'progress' really has been for women, that misogynistic attitudes and beliefs never went anywhere, they just for a while became inappropriate to talk about. Now there's a currently fashionable way to let it all hang out, and there it is in plain sight. But it's already led to many women who had never really thought about women's rights or misogyny, to see it for themselves, start taking it seriously and take action to protect women's rights - me for a start. I think this may lead to a women's rights movement of a strength that hasn't been seen in decades, and who knows what that may achieve.

So where does that leave the transgender woman who would much rather endure the dirty looks of the ladies' room than the potential fists of the men's room?

I have been pondering on this one. I don't think it is as clear-cut as that. In most cases, trans women will NOT be beaten up for using the men's toilets. If they were to use them in some dodgy pubs, then yes, they would probably be at risk of violence, as would an effeminate man or cross-dresser. If however, they were out and about at e.g. a service station, the library, at work, I do not think they would encounter fists. It is more that they use the ladies toilets because that validates their identity and makes them feel like a real woman. It doesn't matter to them if women give them 'dirty looks' because their chief concern is validating their own feelings. In their minds, the only reason a woman could have for giving them dirty looks is bigotry.

That leads me onto the second point, which is that women do not think that they will automatically get attacked by trans women in the toilets. We are not being hysterical by imagining that they are all boogeymen. I know that if I used the men's room at work that my male colleagues would be unlikely to attack me. There is another reason for it, which is privacy and dignity. I am entitled to get undressed in a space without male bodies because I legitimately feel more comfortable doing so.

TRAs do not condemn sex segregation. If they did, I would have more respect for them (although I would disagree). They support it, but say that some male bodies are allowed into female spaces because otherwise it would offend those males. So what they are saying is that trans women have a right to privacy, dignity and safety by using women's facilities but that women do not. Women who object to male bodies in their spaces are nasty and transphobic bigots. They are accused of being obsessed with genitalia and told to educate themselves. If the argument is analysed carefully, there can be no other conclusion than that women's rights to safety, privacy and dignity simply don't matter. We have no right to be free of male bodies, ever.

There are certain things I really hope don't become normalised. Male-bodied people in female sports, for one.

"They live in a society that hasn't yet grown to accommodate them, "

It's men who need to learn to be accommodating. The piece says that much with looks vs fists.

There are lots of sorts of men who are at risk from other men, they can't all be put in with the women. Society needs to face up to and address the issues of violent crime and sex crime which are predominantly committed by men - and this is why women have certain things that are segregated by sex, why some people see them as safer and want in, and why we are saying no hold on, on what basis?

It would be better for all of society to make things safer for everyone, rather than shunting people around (and potentially putting people who were already separated due to heightened and specific risk, at even more risk).

The problem with that is that the whole trans thing is backwards and regressive. We have been slowly working our way towards a gender less society. Just when we reached the point where we were really letting go of the last scraps of gender differentiation when raising our children (girls can do what boys do, dress are for everyone etc) this whole trans thing has somehow jumped from people with gender dysphoria transitioning to everyone who is gender non conforming being trans even if they say otherwise. It's just social conservatism dressed up as rainbows and unicorns. There is nothing professor about saying that if you like dolls and wear dresses you must be a girl.

Exactly, MsBeaujangles. As a society, we need to discuss the reasons behind sex segregation, and the circumstances where it is needed or preferable.

I can see absolutely no reason at all for segregation by gender. Especially as many people don't experience gender identity.

I think most people just don’t care that much about loos. The sign on the door is just a social convention anyway. There’s no law that you can’t nip into the loo of the opposite sex (at least if there is I’ve broken it many times). There is a law against causing threat or harm to someone in a loo though. Personally I’d like to see more mix sexed facilities. It’s much easier for families getting changed/out with parents of opposite sex. I have reservations about the effect of self ID on prisons or women’s shelters but I just can’t get worked up about toilets.

I am trying to get across that society changes all the time.

It hasn't changed though, has it, and it doesn't look like it's going to change any time soon. At the same time we are supposedly entering this brave new world of 'gender identity' where sex apparently doesn't matter any more, women and girls are being sexually assaulted (see the other thread about epidemic sexual abuse of girls in schools), perpetrators are rarely brought to justice, women are paid less than men, women receive horrendous abuse for daring to participate in political life, we still fight for bodily autonomy etc.

Nothing has changed but we are being expected to just ignore all this, dismiss our fears (from personal experience of male sexual assault and violence), stop talking about our bodies because it is exclusionary, to not be able to name male violence and misogyny for what it is, to remove the ability to accurately measure things like the pay gap and male sexual violence against women etc.

If society changes into one where biological sex genuinely doesn't matter, then we'll talk but, pretending it doesn't matter - and doesn't even exist, removes the ability of an oppressed group to name its oppression, protect itself and to fight for our rights.

Society will change. Of course it will, it always does. Who knew twenty years ago that people would look back on Friends and rip it apart for its 'bigotry' - the show that had a lesbian wedding as a major, positive event.

But society doesn't do that in a vacuum. The things we do now affect the direction in which the world will travel. We are not passive creatures watching some entity called 'society' change around us.

There are people pushing for a whole new kind of woo, a way of looking at the world that ignores material reality. I'm unapologetically a religious person, but I have no desire to see material reality subjugated to a new gender mysticism.

People can have their beliefs, and advocate for them freely, and I totally support that freedom. But I am not a passive being who will watch physical reality being obscured, and rights dismantled, and not say a damn thing about it.

I will campaign for an actually scientific society, and if future generations get stuck in a new dark ages, I will be content that it wasn't because I rolled over and said 'Sure, guys, whatever you want'.

I see where you're coming from, Rosetta, but you're missing fundamental parts of the issue, not least that sharing bathrooms is the least of our worries. Extrapolate it and multiply it by the 80% of trans women who have penises and you get the idea that, at the heart of it, safety is what motivates me.
Of course, it's not just about safety, but the privacy and dignity of women too. Furthermore, if we agree that TWAW and there is literally NO difference between them and a natal woman, how can we talk about privacy, dignity, safety and fairness without making a distinction between transwomen and natal women? We can't, it's impossible. If a person who was born a man retains EVERY aspect of maleness but simply says "I'm a woman" and goes on to commit offence/s of violence or sexual offences, self-ID will cause that crime/s to recorded as committed by a female.

Trans women are trans women; they absolutely have a right to be treated fairly and equally but fairness and equality does not always equate to being able to use whatever facility you want to. Men aren't treated unfairly by being told they cannot use women's facilities are they? I am deeply sympathetic to the plight of trans women but how can you have a proper debate when you refuse to acknowledge that biology, not gender identity, is the fundamental reason for segregation. Nobody is saying trans women are all rapists or murderers - well, I'm certainly not. I'm just stating - and will continue to do so - that there's a difference between a male and a female body and that those with female bodies should be entitled to separate spaces with no male bodies. Gender identity does not come into it at all.

Ultimately, society needs to decide which facilities, if any, should be single sex. An appetite for single sex facilities is based on a desire to segregate by sex. It makes zero sense to decide single sex provision is warranted and then ignore the sex of some individuals on the basis of their identity.
It may be the case that some single sex provision is not suitable for some individuals. These people need to be catered for, but eradicating single sex provision to do so is not proportionate

Interesting passage in the article I assume OP is referencing:

I was surprised. It was a nice enough store, and the ladies' dressing rooms were on the other side of the building from the men's. But these two women were not about to remove their clothing in public, even with the partition walls and locking doors.

There's a long history of women feeling ill at ease when expected to perform a private act in a public space, and this history is worth considering as the national debate rages over transgender individuals and bathroom laws. Comfort, privacy, and fear all played a part in creating our sex-segregated bathroom system, and will continue to influence whatever system we create going forward.

theweek.com/articles/621109/brief-history-ladies-bathroom

Knicknackpaddyflak never have I read a more articulate, well written, well thought out but absolutely unequivocal statement of how it really is.

I'm with JellyFisz, it really bugs me that it's always, always women who are called to solve these issues.

My starting position on this was a very accepting one. I sympathised with transwomen and didn't want them to come to any harm and I was happy to have them alongside me in public toilets.
Then I started to learn more and question more and my position started to wobble.

The notion of self-id, the reality of the transwomen demanding access to women's spaces and the abuse I have witnessed from TRAs to women who ask questions, share concerns or speak out, my position has completely changed.

I do still sympathise with people who experience body dysphoria but everything about gender identity strikes me as harmful for both men and women and segregation must remain by sex.

I think what this shows is that those with the fists in the men’s room are the ones who need to take a long hard look at themselves.

And that they are the real danger, the real transphobes who need to be dealt with and reeducated.

^this.

So where does that leave the transgender woman who would much rather endure the dirty looks of the ladies' room than the potential fists of the men's room?

I think what this shows is that those with the fists in the men’s room are the ones who need to take a long hard look at themselves.