Misgendering.

The difference being I ( and I am presuming also you) don't scream in the face of anyone who gets it wrong, accuse them of literal violence or threaten to report them to the police...

You presume right! Likewise I respect your preferred title. I don't tend to use titles on envelopes etc but this is applied universally.

I do use Ms if I am unsure of a woman's preferred title.

I don't tend to scream in faces (struggling to recall an instance) and on the occasions I have had to call the police, it has been done calmly due the fact that there was an immediate threat or actual violence occuring

I know lots of women who are often called by the wrong name and when they correct they other person, that person starts to argue will them and tell them that no, it IS their name.

That's an excellent rundown, Rosemary46!

I thought of another: how many women in the last 100 years have been addressed as "Mrs [husbands firstname] [husbandslastname]"? Did they dissolve, or burst into flames, or did they just simply grind on and get on with that? I had to explain to DS the other day why there was a stone engraved with something like "THIS FOUNDATION STONE WAS LAID BY THE LADY MAYOR, MRS JOHN SMITH, IN 1976" when we were in a museum building. Mrs John Smith (or whoever), even having got to be a mayor, still didn't even bleedin' get her own name.

R0wan I cannot decide whether that Stonewall 'guidance' was written by a not-bright person, or as condescending AF. And note their Freudian: ‘I feel like a girl’ or ‘I don’t feel like a boy’

One problem with the whole 'correct pronouns' thing, is that there are dozens of pronouns to use - there was even some silly guidance about all the variations. How on earth are you meant to guess which are the 'correct pronouns'? And what about the trans/de/re lot like Samantha Kane? Because if one was correctly writing an article that included the two periods of 'presenting male', then the correct pronouns would be 'he/him', and 'she/her' when 'presenting female'. So if it is all about presentation, and the ones that make no effort and someone pronouns on that appearance, it's still wrong.

It is like a massive gaslighting exercise.

A trans young person may wish to use the toilets and changing rooms of their self-identified gender rather than of their assigned sex. Schools should make sure that a trans student is supported to do so and be aware that this is a legal requirement under the Equality Act.

That is a violation of safeguarding requirements.
"What school or college staff should do if they have concerns about safeguarding
practices within the school or college
32.
All s
taff and volunteers should feel able to raise concerns about poor or unsafe
practice and potential failures in the school or college’
s safeguarding regime
and
know
that such concerns will be taken seriously by the
senior leadership team
.
33.
Appropriate
whistleblowing procedures
, which are suitably reflected in staff
training and staff behaviour policies,
should be in place for such concer
ns to be raised
with
the school or college’
s senior leadership team
.

34.
Where
a staff member
feels unable to
raise an
issue
with their employer
or feel
s
that their genuine concerns are not being addressed,
other
whistleblowing
channels
may
be open to them
:

•
General guidance can
be found at

• Advice on whistleblowin"

By chance, I am Ms Tree. I have been Ms Tree since an A level tutor pointed out the anomoly that my male peers title was simply Mr

and I completely understand and respect your right to self identify as Ms! as I self identify as Miss!

The difference being I ( and I am presuming also you) don't scream in the face of anyone who gets it wrong, accuse them of literal violence or threaten to report them to the police...

tweet

Clairetree1

By chance, I am Ms Tree. I have been Ms Tree since an A level tutor pointed out the anomoly that my male peers title was simply Mr.

Over the years all sorts of people tried to call me Miss and then Mrs! to be honest I have always preferred simply Rowan Trees but social convention being as it is, if others need to use a title I'd choose Ms.

Schools should make sure that a trans student is supported to do so and be aware that this is a legal requirement under the Equality Act.

That is an outright lie.

my name is Miss Tree

But all sorts of people insist on calling me Ms.

I am not Ms, I am Miss.

Should I consider that I have had literal violence and death threats from my credit card company? Not only did they get it wrong, but they couldn't change it because I don't have the paperwork to PROVE that I am a Miss

Stonewall's AN INTRODUCTION TO SUPPORTING LGBT YOUNG PEOPLE: A GUIDE FOR SCHOOLS
(extracts)
TIPS FOR PRIMARY SCHOOLS:
• Coming out Younger pupils may tell you they are lesbian, gay, bisexual or trans differently.
A trans young person may say ‘I feel like a girl’ or ‘I don’t feel like a boy’ rather than use the word ‘trans’. They may come to school wearing clothes not typically associated with their assigned sex. However, any young person might change the way they look or dress for lots of reasons and this alone should not be taken as an indication a young person is trans.

Definition of trans for younger pupils: ‘Babies are given a gender when they are born. Trans is a word that describes people who feel the gender they were given as a baby doesn’t match the gender they feel themselves to be, for example someone who is given the gender ‘boy’ but doesn’t feel that way.’

Toilets and changing rooms A trans young person may wish to use the toilets and changing rooms of their self-identified gender rather than of their assigned sex. Schools should make sure that a trans student is supported to do so and be aware that this is a legal requirement under the Equality Act. Schools should also support trans young people to use gender neutral facilities or a private space if that is what they prefer. The most important thing is to talk to the young person rather than make assumptions about the facilities they would like to use. "

www.stonewall.org.uk/sites/default/files/an_introduction_to_supporting_lgbt_young_people_-_a_guide_for_schools_2015.pdf

Given Stonewall's stated intention to abolish single sex exemptions from the Equality Act, it would be interesting to know the course content.

see James Kirkup:
threadreaderapp.com/thread/1004635839480164352.html

They appear to be teaching teachers how to teach children to dissociate.

Stonewall Primary & Secondary School teacher training courses:

see reference to equality act compliance and use of suicide attempt statistics:

www.stonewall.org.uk/get-involved/get-involved-education/creating-trans-inclusive-school-primary

I don't think upstart is saying all trans people are narcissists..but most transactivists appear to be.

IIRC the co-morbidity rate is 80%.

R0wantrees

I am surprised the teacher aren't furnished with pink triangles to label suspect students.

I once received a wall o' text meltdown from a transgender for using they when referring to them. That was the last time I attempted to accommodate an abusive male in that particular way.

They can present however they want but people subconsciously identify people by characteristics other than clothes, hair, make-up etc.

Exactly. I misgendered here the other day and was deleted for it. I was really sleep deprived when I wrote my post and didn't realise I'd done it until mumsnet quoted my post in their email to me. But the person I'd misgendered.... It is really hard to conceive of them as female. I haven't got a clue what they look like, I misgendered them based specifically on the vile misogynistic statements they'd made. My tired brain forgot to tell my words to flip meanings.

Whatever. Many people apparently were sufficiently outraged to report me. I have to assume they were totally cool with the misogyny. Nice.

Haven't read the thread so apologies if this has been covered.

I am a lesbian, I have been with my wife for 20 years, in a CP for 6 years.

I am mis-sexuality-ed constantly. Any new person, be it new acquaintance, new doctor, new course leader, (you get my drift) I have to say 'no, my partner is a woman.'

Do I get my dykey drawers in a twist?
Do I complain that they have literally been violent to me?
Do I tweet to their managers?
Do I make it all about me?

Of course, I don't do I? Why would I?
The norm in society is that woman are heterosexual, are in relationships with men.

It's wearing, I must admit and can feel hard if my anxiety is high, I do want people to like ME and not judge me.

But is my choice to open about my life and that is the risk I take. I haven't ever been openly rejected but there are relationships that aren't as close as they could be, often because men don't like their women mixing with lesbians. I can't imagine why? 😉🤣

So why is mis-gendering seen as so offensive? People have chosen to step outside the norm and have to face the consequences, as I do.

Their identity is tied up in being the other sex? Well, that's impossible, I am sorry.
They can present however they want but people subconsciously identify people by characteristics other than clothes, hair, make-up etc. They pick up on body and face shape, hands and feet, all things that are difficult or impossible to change.
They think I am straight because I am a woman, it's that simple.

So should I start campaigning to never ever ever have the assumption made that I am straight?

US school resources
twitter.com/GLSEN

After viewing the vlog from young teenager Chloe Arden ("Why I hate being transgender", 2 million plus views on Youtube), I can understand how those with gender dysphoria suffer.

For her, it is a slap in the face. It means that she will never be "good enough" - a constant theme in her vlog. It's heartbreaking to watch the effect on her mental health, over the past couple of years.

As has been well argued on this topic, misgendering is something altogether different for other people under the Trans umbrella: it's a weapon to overcome resistance and subdue critics.

It’s also a feature of an abusive relationship that there are things that are practically impossible to get right all the time so you are always on the back foot.

And yes to this too. Been there. Not going there again.

It's about dominance and submission.
^First I make you say what I want.
Then I make you do what I want.^
Finally you accept you are my subordinate

This.

Why isn’t using the wrong name or title for a woman also a wicked thing and a literal death threat ?

I know lots of women who are often called by the wrong name and when they correct they other person, that person starts to argue will them and tell them that no, it IS their name.

Five common examples

Eg I am a woman called Chris Brown married to Robert Smith. People will insist on calling me Mrs Smith even when I tell them that’s not my name. Sometimes I’ve even been told that it’s ILLEGAL to call myself Ms Brown if I’m married. People tell me I’m doing it to spite my ILs and ask me how my husband feels about it.

Eg I’m a woman Chris Brown married to Jane Brown - she changed her name to mine when we got married. People will frequently tell her that She can’t do that / it’s weird and really She is NOT Jane Brown , that she is just pretending to have her wife’s name.

Eg I’m a woman Chris Brown . When I divorced my ex husband, I kept the name Brown as it’s my children’s name and I’ve used it for 20 years. People tell me I must have issues to keep “ his” name and that I should change it . Because women never actually own a name, they just get to borrow it from the man who owns them.

Eg I’m a woman called Professor Chris Brown, but I’m often written to as Dear Sir or called Mr Brown because someone in my job must be male.

Eg I’m Chris Brown who was adopted when I was 6 months old. 50 years later people still ask me what is my REAL name. Because the one I have used for 49 1/2 years isn’t real.

In every case, women who complain about these things are told they are silly , that’s its inconsequential.

That they are not allowed to be offended because it’s the speaker who gets to decide on how the woman should feel.

They are Told they were “ just making conversation “ or “ just interested”.

And it’s their own fault for flaunting social convention.

Why is this I wonder ?

Misgendering is an odd one. I have had a male person who was obviously male scream at me that they were a she not a he. How on earth am I to know this?

I do make an effort with people I know. I have a cousin who is transsexual and even with her I get it wrong at times, but you know what..she doesn't scream at me, she doesn't say I am committing literal violence or anything, she doesn't much care. I honestly think most transpeople would be like this, they may find it rude if its done constantly and deliberately, but would not have this ridiculous OTT reaction that transactivists have.

Which is why I feel
also having worked with people who Truely have narcissistic personality disorder and the damage that this can do to both them and those around them I find your comparisons to trans people make no sense.

I don't think upstart is saying all trans people are narcissists..but most transactivists appear to be.

I was simply addressing this point. “I guess what I'm interested in particularly here is why this accusation of 'misgendering' has any power at all.”