Misgendering.

The immediate consequences for women and girls who refuse to submit appears to be assault and battery.

if you are willing to do what you say on here in the real world and to people and are willing to defend that and take the social consequences of that then I hope it is worth it to you.

I wonder what the 'social consequences' will be for women speaking the truth?

Who will decide what these 'social consequences' will be and when they will be implemented?

if you are willing to do what you say on here in the real world and to people and are willing to defend that and take the social consequences of that then I hope it is worth it to you.

Charming.

Bespin you have picked a side which is anti woman. We know gloating about trans activist bullying when we see it.

Thanks Upstart, a great Feminist Current article with some excellent comments. Going to post it to my Cotton Ceiling evidence thread as it has some good examples.

thebewilderness

I'm not even sure what that means.

We all know that males and femaless are treated differently by society in general, as this thread illustrates.

thebewilderness

this as been my lived experience of it being the norm for well over a decade. would you say all those people I have meet and worked with have been forced to see me in a certain way or treat me as such. I think the number of people out of the thousands I have meet have been like that is very small.

Good for you all, I truly support you in your right to do this, I believe you have the right to see us as you do, and if you do I hope you truly stand by that and follow through with your actions. but if you don't then that's fine too we all have a limit to our beliefs and its really not worth losing your job over this but I respect if you were willing to do that.

if you are willing to do what you say on here in the real world and to people and are willing to defend that and take the social consequences of that then I hope it is worth it to you.

I am a biology teacher.

how long will it be before I face losing my job for stating scientifically accurate biological facts?

I promise you, I still won't agree to lie.

This is not an issue of free speech;

www.feministcurrent.com/2018/08/13/lesbians-excluded-vancouver-dyke-march-name-inclusivity/

A few years ago I was sent my polling card that had me down as 'Mr'. I thought nothing of it but when I turned up on the day I was prevented from voting. How would that work with gender fluidity or non-binary? Are those rules just gone now or is it only women who are punished for someone else misgendering them?

this is totally about if you want to follow social excepted current conventions on how people are addressed

Yes, misgendering is definitely excepted (ie taken exception to, objected to) by most people. Society in general expects that masculine pronouns be used for male-bodied people, and feminine pronouns be used for female-bodied people.

If excepted is a typo for accepted, the same applies: society in general expects that masculine pronouns be used for male-bodied people, and feminine pronouns be used for female-bodied people.

this is totally about if you want to follow social excepted current conventions on how people are addressed you don't want to and I have to respect that just as you will have to respect that I can ask you not to.

This is the FWR board where we dispute the dominance/submission paradigm that you are insisting is the socially accepted current convention, despite the fact that it is not.

See, that's just sinister, Bespin. This isn't a free speech issue, this is about people being forced to lie.
But the fact that you have decided to frame it as a free speech issue, with the particular angle of the limits of free speech, is really quite disturbing, tbh.

Agree.

They frame it as just being an issue of being polite or a free speech issue, which is disingenuous at best, and gaslighting at worse. Forcing people to use the wrong pronouns for someones sex, on threat of negative consequences if they don’t, is forcing people to lie and pretend they agree with an ideology when they don’t. It is forced compliance which is a regular feature of dictatorships.

Bespin

You can ask. Of course you can. Be prepared for a "nope", though.

You can wave policies and guidance under our noses and threaten with legal action. And the answer will not only be "Nope", it will galvanise a grassroots resistance.

Grassroots resistance outside social media is what drives me, now.

give over FloralBunting you can choose not to conform to societal norms and agree social practices people do it all the time at no point is anyone making you conform to them you have a choice just like other people who don't use words or say things that people might find offensive you have the right not to lie as you see it what I am. pointing out is that others may not share. your view and ask you not to do it. they may have policies that ask you not to and set out the consequences of not doing so it. this is totally about if you want to follow social excepted current conventions on how people are addressed you don't want to and I have to respect that just as you will have to respect that I can ask you not to.

Bespin I was commenting on your assertion to FloraBunting,

"you have every right to misgender me"

I gave a number of examples where clearly this assertion was not true this eg police, newspaper reporting of crime and also this forum.

At no point did I express a wish or intention to mispronoun/ misgender you.

R0wantrees

you have every right to misgender me

That's not true though is is? For example as a consequence of pressure from TRAs MN include as part of the new guidelines on this board:

I did not say it did not come with consequences you have the right to misgender me I can not stop you doing it, but that does not mean that if you did it here it would stand as there is a consequence to doing it on here. that's there to help this remain civil but you don't have to Respect that no one is making you. but I think you will find free speech does not mean free from consequences.

We shouldn't forget that the term 'misgendering' has been stolen from butch lesbians and effeminate gay men.

The whole edifice of trans ideology is built on stealing the history and terms of intersex, black, lesbian, gay and transexual people.

I would not call a male by the wrong pronoun for his sex for many reasons:

1. It is based on a ideological belief.

1. It’s sexist.

1. It can be part of a fetish.

1. It is narcissistic.

1. It is controlling and abusive.

For these reasons I refuse to use the wrong pronouns for their sex, I would use their name at a push, but that is all.

Funny how, despite the mention of feminism he doesn’t mention love for or solidarity with natal women. Ho-hum.

Edward Lord is possibly the furthest thing from a feminist that I can imagine right now.

People who find it perfectly acceptable to refer to women as TERFs, bitches and cunts will derail conversations about heinous crimes, including murder and the rape of a child, to scream about the violence of misgendering the perpetrator.

Not only is misgendering violence, it is the worst violence. In fact, the actual violence committed cannot even be named unless everybody acquiesces to using the ‘correct’ pronouns. There is a very obvious move to make misgendering a moral failure and accepting that transwomen are women a moral imperative.

There's something that I call "disgendering" and it has nothing to do with transphobia. Rather, it has everything to do with a refusal to validate particular transfemmes.

No-one has the right to insist on particular pronouns when they exhibit behaviour more associated with men. Tara Wolff is a case in point, where (I felt) the judge was wholly wrong in insisting that a strapping, violent man be given the courtesy of "she".

Disgendering is not unfair, or discriminatory, or hateful or any of those other words. It recognises that I will go along with a fiction, and the courtesies, for a small group of transexuals - so long as they are not a threat to me and other women.

But I have a need to maintain my boundaries - for my safety and for safeguarding others. I have a right to disgender a man who identifies as a woman but exhibits all the traits of the male sex.
That's not transphobic. That's me, protecting myself from the likes of Jess Bradley.