Misgendering.

A tweet from Lily about how 'hot' it is when women do as men bid.

Sorry I don't want to walk on eggshells around abusive narcissistic people. Been there, done that.

This, with bells on.

I also found it hugely helpful when someone pointed out this "it's not so hard to find out and learn my pronouns" stuff is males demanding emotional labour from women, again.

I am female and identify as such. I have been mistaken for male when younger when I had short hair / wearing jeans and a rain jacket and later wearing a work uniform comprising baseball gap and trousers / promotional teeshirt. I remember the incidents which suggests they had an impact on me and yes I was a bit embarrassed that they thought I looked like a ‘boy’ but i wasn’t angry at the people who did it, it was just a mistake.

Sorry I don't want to walk on eggshells around abusive narcissistic people. Been there, done that.

This person immediately started complaining that he/she/zie/they/wombat had been misgendered, despite there being no indication that the person identified as anything other than male.

Classic example of someone weaponising this as a power trip.

I. don't think that its literally violance for most of us

It's really not "literally violence" for anyone, Bespin.

for some women the TRAs around them can be hostile towards them and they suffer a lot of abuse which can be constant and can happen everyday.

Also, "for some people the TRAs... etc"

Beyond the Binary: A magazine for UK Non-Binary People.
beyondthebinary.co.uk/mission-statement/

Jess Bradley's article:
beyondthebinary.co.uk/genderfeelings-transphobic/

Recently, a male acquaintance was doing sword training (or running around and hitting people with sticks). He said to the people on his team 'go after that guy', indicating another person in the group.

This person immediately started complaining that he/she/zie/they/wombat had been misgendered, despite there being no indication that the person identified as anything other than male. Their 'friends' (not sure as do not want to misacquaintance them) then kept making rude comments and centering their attacks on the male acquaintance.

I was just looking at the site 'Beyond the Binary'

"Beyond the Binary uses the term ‘non-binary’ as an umbrella to catch and include a range of gender and sex identities that do not completely fit only man/woman, masculine/feminine, or male/female. We realise that language varies from person to person and space to space, and some people may not feel included by the term. There are no guidelines on what ‘non-binary’ is or is not, and we do not enforce one image or experience of being non-binary. We recognise it’s difficult to find a wording that encapsulates everyone’s experience of what non-binary is or means."

I have been wondering, is the new binary to be Queer or not Queer?

Bespin for some women the TRAs around them can be hostile towards them and they suffer a lot of abuse which can be constant and can happen everyday.

I have met people who will try to use pronouns/misgendering as a way to exert power. The effects of this can become cumulative and can cause harm.

As always intent is important but also the consequences.

Doyenne

because for some trans people the people around them can be hostile towards them, and they suffer a lot of abuse and that if you get that then it can become constent and it can happen everyday. there is a difference I. don't think that its literally violance for most of us and I except someone can make a mistake. but as I said I. have meet people who will try to use this as a way to exert power and it is this use of misgendering that can become clumlative and can cause harm to someone along with other factors. as always intent in these things is importent.

Bespin there is an inconsistency in your arguments, you claim misgendering is worse for someone transgender compared to a mere female because it happens so much more and yet later you claim people go along with your preferred gender & name 99% of the time. And that most people go along with it you use as an argument for why the rest should.

Can't both be true

"More a general comment about how frustrating it is to be told women have made no progress and will only make progress if we work with men to solve the problems men create for other men.
I understand that you may not think that is what you are telling women, so you are welcome to ignore me at your leisure."

I don't think women have made no progress. I didn't say no progress. At one time we had no legal rights to our own kids. Of course we have made progress.

I think women have made loads of progress.

I just think male toxic behaviour persists. I think some of this trans debate sways us away from tackling other issues.

But I respect any woman's right to fight the issues she sees as relevant and significant, of course.

I don't want to ignore you. I want to make progress so I want to understand different views.

I just think maybe the enemy of my enemy is my friend. If I am fighting Bobby and BIlly, my energy is diverted two ways. I may not need Bobby's help to fight Billy but I may need to stop fighting Bobby to tackle Billy.

I guess if Bobby isn't a threat I might need to put aside any issues.

I think it's tactical. But I could be wrong. I came into this 'debate' looking for middle ground. I can't seem to find it. But maybe I just don't know where to look.

recent thread:
OP LisaMuggeridge writes,
"As far as I was aware all mothers had a legal responsibilit to identify and stand up to male pattern abusive behaviour. Its fairly well defined, the duluth wheel, intersectionality, case law, we know what abusive behaviour is. If someone is demonstrating male pattern abusive behaviour they are expressing their gender, so how can you be misgendering them by identifying and managing that risk? Are we not legally required to disregard identity when male pattern abusive behaviour is demonstrated? Has this changed?"

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3308540-Misgendering-and-abusive-male-pattern-behaviour

Ironically, it is toxic males who are causing many of the issues so actually if we could come together to fight toxic masculinity we might actually get somewhere.

Not specifically directed at you.
More a general comment about how frustrating it is to be told women have made no progress and will only make progress if we work with men to solve the problems men create for other men.
I understand that you may not think that is what you are telling women, so you are welcome to ignore me at your leisure.

I know lots of women who are often called by the wrong name and when they correct they other person, that person starts to argue will them and tell them that no, it IS their name.

This happens to me A LOT

Yes I absolutely draw a line. And respect others views. I'd just like to find solutions. But I do respect other people's lines, or try to, and don't want to be perceived any other way.

I think my concern is with the seemingly significant number of people in the trans community with comorbid cluster B personality disorders who like to make trouble for people. I won't use "she" for a male. I would try to avoid pronouns. To one of these people that would be seen as invalidating. I get that you don't think it's that important and you draw a different line. But you still draw a line.

I would imagine in the work place pronouns are actually most commonly used in terms of I and you and they. I don't know that it is getting away with anything, but I do see your point.

Personally, in a workplace situation I don't think I'd have an issue. It's situations like male prisoners in female prisons that I would find impossible to call them she. So if my work place was a female prison I'd be in trouble.

I think it is possible to not use pronouns. To avoid use of them altogether. I don't think the law can mandate use of them.

I don't think you would get away with this, Italian, in the workplace. It's not about the letter of the law.

I wonder how significant this issue of misgrndering is for either 'side'. Maybe we are focussing on the wrong aspect.

I know in this debate some women are very scared of self id (I know I am), but I understand some trans people are scared too.

Ironically, it is toxic males who are causing many of the issues so actually if we could come together to fight toxic masculinity we might actually get somewhere.

Many of is have said on mumsmet in various places if we think if someone is a genuine trans person (not a sTAR, a person in good faith), we would use the requested pronouns.

I think it is possible to not use pronouns. To avoid use of them altogether. I don't think the law can mandate use of them.

The only time this (not using a pronoun) was an issue reported on the media (that I know of) was the school teacher who refused to call a female pupil 'he'.

I felt the issue against him was very wrong because children cannot legally change gender. So that was forced self id. I don't know how that worked out. He was a Christian and I think that probably went against him too.

But aside from that most cases seem to be using the pronoun someone has rejected. I can easily see that for a trans person that could feel like bullying.

JellySlice

That happens a lot here.

thebewilderness: We all know that males and femaless are treated differently by society in general...

Bespin: I'm not even sure what that means.

LOL
How can Bespin possibly be trans if they haven't noticed that men and women are treated differently? So nothing changed after 'transitioning'?

if you are willing to do what you say on here in the real world

what do you mean "if I am willing"? you make it sound as if it is a choice.

I am a teacher, my life's work is to explain the truth to children.