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Original poster

The science of transgender / gender identity

86 replies

LayOfTheLand · 10/08/2018 12:30

I'm feeling a little wary stepping in here, but I wanted to ask a question about transgender and science. I've been following many posts here, and although I don't spend too much of my time thinking about transgender issues, I'm in the camp where I broadly think the world is going a bit mad about transgender. It's not something I can really understand and get my head around, and I'm very opposed to the idea of self-identification. If I'm honest, I struggle with the idea of men who feel that they are trapped in the wrong body, and vice versa, because I broadly see a world where it's fine for a man to have "feminine" traits, and vice versa.

However, in challenging my views, I was looking for some summary of the scientific evidence for gender identity and I came across a few links, and there does seem evidence that there is something genuine for a small proportion of people who have characteristics of "female" brains, and so on.

e.g. sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2016/gender-lines-science-transgender-identity/

Has anyone got a good summary of what the scientific evidence is on gender identity, and does it influence your views on the current discussions. Thanks a lot, and please be gentle!

OP posts:
Original poster
LayOfTheLand · 10/08/2018 13:41

To be frank, I'm not a neurobiologist, and that's partly why I'm here and interested. I see the argument that because most women are less than 5 foot 10, just because someone is 6 foot, it doesn't make them a woman. But I don't know enough about what could possibly constitute a "female" brain. But I also have a vague understanding that broadly, scientists agree that there are differences in female and male brains, across a range of characteristics, that allow us to say something about the sex.

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BarrackerBarmer · 10/08/2018 13:38

Intersex is not a sex.

Actually, 'intersex' isn't a thing. It's a misnomer, and its falling out of usage, or it would if certain lobbies would stop co-opting it as a political pawn.
There are various disorders of sex development. They are not 'inter' (between) the sexes.
They are variations of disorders of sex development.

Fr example, girls born with only one X chromosome (Turner's syndrome) are still all female. They aren't a third sex, and they aren't between the two sexes.

UpstartCrow · 10/08/2018 13:37

How can 'intersex' possibly be a biological sex? Try to use logic to think that through.

What gametes does the imaginary third sex produce, how do they gestate the young?

Original poster
LayOfTheLand · 10/08/2018 13:36

Or rather that intersex is the presence of certain biological markers or characteristics, which is biological rather than social.

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Original poster
LayOfTheLand · 10/08/2018 13:35

My understanding, scientifically, was that it was (that intersex is recognised as a biological sex).

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BarrackerBarmer · 10/08/2018 13:34

What are the characteristics of female brains?

Think it through.

Apply logic.

Noting a weak correlation between some but not all biological females and some other factor doesn't make this factor relevant in determining anything.

Most females are under 5'10''.
This does not mean that men who are also under 5'10'' are female.

Most females have more flexible pelvises than males.
This does not mean that anyone with a flexible pelvis is female.

Most women have smaller brains than men.
This does not mean that a man with a smaller brain is female.

If an attribute exists in both women and men, it isn't a defining characteristic of sex. It may well show a slightly different distribution in men and women. But it isn't a determinant of sex!

We have to stop treating the statistical edges of a normal curve as if they are aberrations.

If your chromosomes, genitals AND gonads are all concordant, there is no ambiguity at all. That is your sex, and EVERY other feature of you is a living breathing example of how YOUR SEX possesses such characteristics. You are just part of the natural variation of your own sex.

nauticant · 10/08/2018 13:30

Sex isn't a spectrum.

Intersex is not a third sex being a mixture of male and female.

Original poster
LayOfTheLand · 10/08/2018 13:26

What do you mean biological gender making it garbage? At least as I can imagine it, there is something akin to a discrete spectrum, in that s I understand it, intersex is a genuine medical condition.

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nauticant · 10/08/2018 13:23

The first thing I see when I open that link is a banner referring to "Biological Gender". It doesn't exactly inspire confidence in what is to follow.

Further down I see that "Biological Gender" is a spectrum going from Male to Female via Intersex. That's garbage.

UpstartCrow · 10/08/2018 12:50

Brains are plastic. Genitals are not. I dont think anyone here opposes surgery for people with severe dysphoria.

That doesn't change or remove women's place in society, or our need for women only spaces and services.

theOtherPamAyres · 10/08/2018 12:47

Good question LieoftheLand

I'd like to see a thread for future reference.

Perhaps the science of gender identity needed to be explored by the Parliamentary Committee on GRC. I wonder if they did explore the research?