Museum of London - why female-only toilets were so important

Transwomen are already in women's toilets, are religious women not using them now.
Yes. Some women are prevented from using mixed sex spaces and services.
You can sneer, but some women have their lives restricted. Women only spaces and services allow them to participate in everyday life.

So if a guy in drag entered a woman's toilet and exposed himself in the communal area he would be challenged right.
'A man in drag' is a transphobic description, if the man says he identifies as a woman.
There might be a woman in there alone who is too scared to challenge him.
There might be a woman suffering a miscarriage who just wants privacy.

Your solution requires women to be harmed before any action is taken. Why not fight for a third unisex space? Everyone who feels comfortable sharing can use that one. You can show the rest of us how safe and inclusive it is.

make them unusable for female members of some strict religious groups?

Transwomen are already in women's toilets, are religious women not using them now.

but now that guy in drag would hopefully be challenged

So if a guy in drag entered a woman's toilet and exposed himself in the communal area he would be challenged right. If self id comes in he will still be committing an offence by exposing hinself so can still be challenged.

I'm also against self id but the toilet thing is not the issue. A quite toilet such as an empty train station is dangerous now, anyone can enter. A busy toilet such as a shopping centre your safe regardless because there is cctv on the door, security guards and lots of people coming and going. Toilets also have locked cubical and trans woman up to no good outside the cubical will still be committing an offence and will get in trouble.

Changing rooms are different because we have a communal area. How do you challenge what's just getting changed and what's flashing your penis for sexual gratification. But think about it logically, there's nothing they can do in a toilet that they can't already do and the repercussions remain the same.

Plus this thread isn't actually talking about self id but suggesting no trans people should be in a women's toilet they should have a third space. I'm saying a third space is unnecessary as the system we have now works fine. You are a woman or look pretty much like a woman you use the women's. You look like a bloke regardless of what you are wearing (jess Bradley) you use the mens.

What do you actually think trans people are going to do in the toilet? Is it somthing any guy in drag could not enter and women's toilet and so now?

The result of the change in law would be that it would no longer be legal for women to object to men in the women's loo. Given what is happening now there will no longer be a women's loo and we will be driven from the public sphere by predatory and abusive men.

This claim that men have always been in the women's loo always leaves out the number of times they have been arrested for it. We know why.

Is it somthing any guy in drag could not enter and women's toilet and so now?

but now that guy in drag would hopefully be challenged

What do you actually think trans people are going to do in the toilet?

make them unusable for female members of some strict religious groups?

thanks for this OP

another thread mentioned that men actually vandalised women's bathrooms when they were first made - does anyone know any more about this? I did google of course but couldn't find anything, so wonder if anyone knowing the history is on this thread?
thanks

Trans people are already in your toilet.

Banging on about toilets which is frankly a non issue makes a mockery of the whole self id debate.

What do you actually think trans people are going to do in the toilet? Is it somthing any guy in drag could not enter and women's toilet and so now?

And a third space will never happen for toilets. Prisons maybe. But for toilets the cost far out weights the benefit and the need.

@Steph and @Wherismy - why do we bang on about toilets, you ask? Well, to summarise I need only two words: Jess + Bradley. Don't do the "Who is that?" rouse, won't wash. That the TRA's haven't renounced that person's actions speaks volumes.

depends what you want dunnit?

you want to relieve yourself in privacy and safety? third space is for you.

if you have other motivations, third space won't work for you.

*how do you think the 'funding and providing' happened?

the toilet fairies?

did disabled loos spring up like mushrooms?*

Well obviously they campaigned for them. What's your point. Trans people don't want or need a third toilet. So you can campaign all you want but they won't get it.

They actually need disabled toilets and so they are funded and provided

how do you think the 'funding and providing' happened?

the toilet fairies?

did disabled loos spring up like mushrooms?

Non binary people can use whatever facility they feel suits them most at the time

a brilliant solution if you don't give a shit about the wants or feelings of the other people in there....

Actually the law says that those who are protected in the gender reassignment category of the EA may use whichever facility they choose.

If you think about why the UN is working to convince governments to provide toilet facilities for females so that they can participate safely in the public sphere it might occur to you why women are making a fuss over toilets. We do not wish to be driven out of the public sphere by predatory males as women are in so many other countries.

Also women who identify as men will be using the men's toilets.

Don't try to make this a feminist issue, men are loosing out as well, they need a private place away from women.

Non binary people can use whatever facility they feel suits them most at the time.

The fact is non binary is just non feminine women. They're not going to use the blokes are they. Non binary men still look like men so belong in the men's.

What's the solution for non-binary people
What's a non-binary person? Everyone is either male or female. The segregation is by sex, not gender identity or how you dress.

That's why there are no disabled toilets anywhere...

Disabled toilets are completely different. A disabled toilet has aids in it to facilitate a disabled person. A disabled person could litrially not use a normal toilet and there fore not go out the house. They actually need disabled toilets and so they are funded and provided.

Transgender people don't need a third toilet, in fact they don't even want it. Women want them to have one so they don't have to share. Trans people and woman can use the toilets we have in place now so funding would not be granted. And why should it be. Funding is being cut from so many much needed services. Why should we fund third toilets because women don't want trans in their toilets and trans that don't pass don't want to use the men's.

Who will pay for this third space? It would cost billions and for what 1% of the population. Its not going to happen.
That's why there are no disabled toilets anywhere...

The answer is, if you look like a woman or are a biological woman, you use the women's.

Oh wait that's the system we have now. Seems to work fine to me.

Which begs the questions, why are people campaigning for change, who are these people and do they have alteria motives.

I'm guessing cross dressing fetishes, opertunistic perverts and mra. Because why would a transexual that already has use of their chosen facility campaign for change.

Also thanks for the link OP- really interesting article!

Why can't all toilets be cubicles and all unisex, no urinals and no fear

Because there are voyeurs around who enjoy listening to women in the toilet. I don't know why it gets them off so much - but it does.

Because men's toilets are grim. Men wee on the floor. I don't know why they can't aim properly, but a proportion of them don't. I used to work in a bar where we had to do the cleaning by rota, including the toilets - believe me - cleaning the men's toilets was everybody's last choice.

It's not too much to ask to have a private space for females.

But the writing is on the wall with this one - I suspect trans rights will be put (are being put) above women's privacy everywhere.

We won't be able to challenge men in women's spaces anymore - because anyone who says they are a woman, is a woman under this new gender identity ideology.

I think we need a campaign of holding up cards saying why we personally need particular female spaces. Has that been done yet?

I would encourage anyone with doubts about why women want and need women’s toilets as a single-sex space (as opposed to the gender neutral option only, or sharing unadapted toilets with Male-bodied people), to read this thread.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3203454-What-do-you-use-the-womens-toilets-for

^^^ Personally (speaking as a female woman) I really don’t want to only have the choice of gender neutral toilets.

I value the women-only space that the women’s toilets provides (ie outside of the cubicle too- the whole space).

Many very important reasons to protect these spaces for women and girls were set out by posters on this thread.

BlueEyedPersephone
Why can't all toilets be cubicles and all unisex, no urinals and no fear
Why don't you campaign for a third, gender neutral option? That way you can have your 'Lets All Pee Together In Peace', and so can women who dont want mixed sex bathrooms for all the reasons that have been listed so many times.