Museum of London - why female-only toilets were so important

Bibesia
What do you suggest women do who aren't permitted to use the toilet if there's a biological man using them?

Ereshkigal, given that third spaces don't exist in the vast majority of venues open to the public, what should she do in the meantime?

Shock horror I don't believe Jan Morris is a woman.

Jan Morris' understanding of who they are and the nature of their personal experience have always been described with nuance as can be read in this contemporaneous writing by close friend and journalist David Holden:

archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/books/97/11/23/home/morris-interview.html?mcubz=1

I know you may think it's blasphemy but I don't consider anyone born male a woman (not counting intersex before anyone starts that bullshit)

Shock horror I don't believe Jan Morris is a woman. I don't believe you can "earn" womanhood. I don't believe you can change your sex. I don't believe gender (sex) dysphoria makes you a woman. It's my personal opinion, many other opinions are available.

This is not about Jan Morris. We can't make a law just for Jan Morris. Hard cases make bad law. What is the difference between Jane Fae and Jan Morris?

Bibesia

As I said, I was asking if you might clarify what you meant by 'people like Jan Morris'.

Use the third space that we are asking for. This is not and never has been women's problem.

I don't believe people like Jan Morris have a "right" to use women's facilities

So what is she to do if she needs the toilet when out and about? Cross her legs? How does her presence in women's facilities harm or endanger women?

R0wantrees, what point are you making? Where did I or anyone else suggest that Jan Morris was seeking to deny the life she had lived as a male?

people such as Jan Morris

Who are "people such as Jan Morris" ?

Could you please clarify?

Jan Morris is 91 years old, an important & highly regarded author and journalist.

Jan Morris describes herself as transsexual, has been open about the surgery she had in Morocco in 1972 and this important aspect of her life, publishing 'Conundrum: a personal story of transsexualism' a couple of years later.

I don't believe Jan Morris has ever sought to deny the 35+ years of life lived as boy and then man called James Morris? It was a rather remarkarkable life after all, described in Morris' unique style in many articles and books.

I don't believe people like Jan Morris have a "right" to use women's facilities. So I didn't engage with that. Religious women do.

Really, you could think this through on your own, couldn't you? The information is available.

If many women's religious beliefs forbid their use of mixed sex toilets and other women avoid mixed sex toilets out of fear it will dramatically constrain women participation in the public sphere. Just as lack of single sex toilet facilities did in the past.

Currently they are operating on the assumption that single sex toilets and changing rooms are indeed single sex. If they discover they are mixed sex by observing the presence of a male bodied person they will probably do what women have always done in the past. Leave and never go back.

How do you suggest we stop these people? That reality is not a reason to let all males in.

I didn't suggest it was. I was responding to the specific point made that allowing trans women to use female toilets would render them unusable to members of specific religious groups; inquiring whether that means they are currently unusable for such people given that they are already used by trans women; and whether their religious beliefs should trump the rights of people such as Jan Morris.

It is however interesting that some people have chosen to answer a completely different, and fictional, point.

RaceCarDriver

I used to be able to go for ages between weeing - having children and getting older means I need to go more frequently

In addition, I still get caught out when my period appears early (hello pre-menopause) or when I'm taking a particular medicine (which can make urination more frequent, but also the need to urinate goes very quickly from "hmm, when I get the chance I need to pee" to "ah, need to go noooooow!")

My DC are older now, but it's not long since I was pretty much always accompanied in public by one or more small DC who tend to be not so great at letting you know in good time then holding it in. Take away female loos and you more or less take away loos for small children too

What puzzles me is the notion that the criterion for allowing people born male to access women's toilets should be solely whether they look feminine or not.

It's not whether they "look feminine". It's whether they literally pass as female and no one is any the wiser. How do you suggest we stop these people? That reality is not a reason to let all males in.

Well, yes - in this current climate we're basically being forced to draw a line somewhere.

Where that line is varies from person to person - but I think most of agree that the gender identity "feeling like a woman" while clearly looking very male is way beyond that line.

I quite agree that certain women's services should be female only, ToeToToe. What puzzles me is the notion that the criterion for allowing people born male to access women's toilets should be solely whether they look feminine or not.

Bibesia - A rapist who can make himself look convincingly like a woman is in the clear...

Glad to see you've acknowledged this possibility.

You've just described perfectly why certain women's services should be female only - and why we fight for it.

So it's what you look like that dictates it? A rapist who can make himself look convincingly like a woman is in the clear, whereas a post-operative transwoman who isn't deemed to look female is unacceptable?

If Jan Morris is not seen as male then self evidently Jan can use the ladies loo by stealth. If Jan Morris looked obviously male then Jan Morris should not be using the ladies loo as it's a violation of women's boundaries and a domineering male act which shows thoughtlessness about the feelings, privacy and dignity of women.

It's really quite simple.

What do you actually think trans people are going to do in the toilet?

make them unusable for female members of some strict religious groups?

Which groups, precisely? Are those groups currently boycotting public toilets given that they are undoubtedly used by transgender people? How would you propose to remedy that? Should their religious beliefs trump the right of someone like Jan Morris to use the Ladies?

Very few of these male people "look and act as a woman". If they really did no one would know, would they?

I don't understand this comment. Are you saying her dad should be able to enter the toilet to protect her?

No, I'm saying that there is a reason he didn't go in. The social contract that males shouldn't access female spaces. Perhaps we should get rid of sex segregated toilets entirely if we're going to allow some males in?

Third space is the only fair way. I don't want any males in female spaces. They should stop using them as a validation tool.

Except - TAs are arguing it should be based on self-identification of gender identity, not biological sex or whether you "pass" as a woman or not.

So any man can say he feels like a woman - then he is a woman. The feelings of men - or rather their 'internal gender identity' - are being put above women and girl's safety.

I'm suggesting provision remains on the basis of sex. What are you suggesting?

If you look and act like a woman or are a biological woman you can use the ladies.

Clearly male bodied people regardless of how they are dressed should use the men's. Which is the system we are supposed to have now.

I'm suggesting provision remains on the basis of sex. What are you suggesting?