Misogyny and sexism. How big is the overlap?

That's very true. From my own experience of moving from internalised misogyny to a hopefully ever-evolving enlightened understanding, it is a real slog at times to not give in. There is quite a bit of two steps forward, three steps back.

It's one of the reasons I really appreciate Datun's posts on here, because she really shows calm patience which is so helpful in reaching people who are on a journey. But obviously, everyone is human and growth can be frustrating.

Yes. It would be harsh to label someone as either 'a sexist' or 'a misogynist' if they are undergoing a process of self-examination around it and are ready to be corrected.

But people can resent the process - it is exhausting and demoralising to constantly second-guess your instincts and assumptions- so they stop at some point (then maybe start again later) or alternatively people really easily revert to sexism and misogyny in times of stress.

Oh, I get you now. I think there is probably a difference between a 'sexist' and someone who is affected by cultural sexist attitudes. Though I appreciate that's probably a very nuanced distinction.

To 'be' a sexist rather implies an active choice to embrace those attitudes, which certainly does indicate misogyny, whereas to have some sexist attitudes due to cultural conditioning that can be unlearned rather than an ontological condition is something different.
Though obviously everything is learned behaviour, of course. But an active choice is very different to an unconscious one.

I'm aware that this is all a bit rareified, but, to continue the example of my dad - his father was an appalling misogynist. He kept my grandmother in a cupboard when he felt she stepped out of line. My dad learned a lot of cultural behaviour and attitude from my grandad, and has certainly behaved in bad ways in his life. But, certainly since our reconciliation, he has displayed a real willingness to admit he was very wrong about things - when I was a child and wanted to be a mechanic, I was flat out told no, because I was female. He wouldn't even think that now about my daughters. He still has much to learn, but he doesn't embrace the misogyny his father did.

Thinking about it - everyone is a misogynist though - it would be pretty hard to not be affected by conditioning. That's why it is important to examine our own feelings and assumptions.

But I'm still not seeing how that negates misogyny as a root that forms the basis for an idea which will falter if the root dies.

Oh no. I definitely agree that misogyny is the root of sexism and that sexism would die without misogyny - I am arguing against the inference that could be drawn from the analogy - that you can be sexist (inherit sexism), without experiencing misogyny (inheriting the misogyny with it).

Sexism, whether lazy, thoughtless, unintended, whatever - can not itself be plucked from 'the tree' of misogyny. Misogyny is always there in the sexism, but it may be unconscious or latent like unconscious racism. A sexist person is also a misogynist under closer examination.

I don't think sexism and misoginy are always a pair. We treat women differently from men in many ways, sometimes with good intention, sometimes out of tradition, sometimes for deliberately oppressive purposes. Good intentions don't always work out, sometimes traditions are steeped in dubious histories, but it doesn't make sexism inherently misogynist.

I think you can find sexism without misoginy, but not vice versa.

We even have laws that are sexist, in as much as they differentiate between men and women. The rights and wrongs of that are another debate, but sexism can be used in the same manner as positive discrimination, to try and redress the balance of favour.

As for the conditioning of our children, I think this is the number one factor for most of our troubles between the sexes, and we adults as a whole continue to (largely) perpetuate the problems. For every seeming step forward in each generation, we also seem to have a step backwards with ever more violent acts and abuse particularly from males towards females. Whatever adult men and women are doing as a society, progress is excruciatingly slow.

YY to girls being socialized to overlook the disgusting, or to attempt to 'civilize' it. And also boys being indulged in their rough edges.

But I'm still not seeing how that negates misogyny as a root that forms the basis for an idea which will falter if the root dies.

These are pretty deeply woven cultural ideas, yes. And they wouldn't have grown up without a strongly misogynistic grounding. Cutting down the branches of sexism is a good thing, but it's the root of misogyny which causes all sorts of other nonsense to spring up, even as some things are cut right back.

I don't think they are parallel things. I think it's more like misogyny is the root, partially hidden, so harder to see, and sexism is the fruiting tree growing from the root.

Not everyone who is sexist it misogynist. Sometimes they are just picking the fruit of the tree. But without the root, the tree would wither away.

This is how I see it.

Wheredowebegin-your posts are spot on. The conditioning of girls to accept and condone crap behaviour from boys starts so early, and is a theme in many adult woman's lives.

Ha ha. I used to play with snails.

I don't find slugs and snails particularly adventuresome but I grew up in west wales where you can't take 2 steps without crushing a snail.

I genuinely don't think he's a misogynist. Or if he is, he's pretty conflicted.

My dad was theoretically against sexism, thought his own dad was a prick, loved his mum, encourage his daughters, etc. But he had really unrealistic expectations of women as a spouse and the misogyny would slip out there.

who'd want to share a colour with a sex that were made out of slugs and snails and poor defenceless puppy-dog's tails??

I always thought that sounded like adventure and exploration. Being compared to cake ingredients seems somewhat static, boring and waiting to be consumed by someone else.

Sorry. Was interrupted mid post. Will just read the above now.

I've heard plenty of girls say a variation on "Ew, boys!"

But the childlike 'tribes' of boys and girls get gradually culturally conditioned into a hierarchy by repetition and the 'yuk! about males is socialised out of girls (even though a lot of men are stomach-churningly revolting in their sexual disfunction and behaviour, so that disgust would serve them well to keep).

I'm thinking of stories like The Frog Prince and Beauty and the Beast where girls are taught to suppress their disgust of (repulsive) males to be 'better', less superficial people.

Part of misogyny is cultural conditioning that women and girls should be held to high (impossible?) behavioural standards and judged harshly. It manifests as genuine visceral feelings of disgust and hatred when women fail or don't comply. Males are more accepted - as rugged, flawed and forgivable whatever their behaviour - almost no matter how disgusting they are, it can be excused.

Thinking further, my dad is of the generation where sexism is pretty ingrained. He still enjoys some pretty ripe jokes and comes out with some eye watering cobblers sometimes.

But he is excessively proud of his daughters - my sister is in the police and he will tell everyone he meets what a fabulous person she is and how she doesn't take any shit. He is extremely vocal about me actually getting a career after all those years as Mrs super housewife, and told me he thought all that 'Womans place is in the home' stuff was bollocks and he's so glad to see me doing well in a job, earning my own money and being a great example to my girls. He tells all my kids equally that they can do whatever they want to do, and was encouraging one of my daughters towards engineering.

So I genuinely don't think he's a misogynist. Or if he is, he's pretty conflicted.

But, but... in most cases, sexism which we are socialised into, occurs at the same time as being socialised into cultural misogyny. .. boys say "Euuuer, yuk! Pink is a girl's colour", so they are developing the belief of female being lesser and disgusting - it's the visceral conditioning to a 'yuk!' response thing that is key here, not the division into 2 different colours.

But who'd want to share a colour with a sex that were made out of slugs and snails and poor defenceless puppy-dog's tails??

Possibly - though the child's yuk response is just as likely in the other direction. I've heard plenty of girls say a variation on "Ew, boys!"

Not everyone who is sexist is misogynist. Sometimes they are just picking the fruit of the tree. But without the root, the tree would wither away.

I am on the fence about this. If someone is sexist in some way, who isn't misogynist, it may be because they don't know things to be different, so they probably wouldn't get defensive when challenged. I am thinking of a conversation with a child where you say "particular colours aren't for boys or girls" and the child will answer "yes that's silly to say they are".

But, but... in most cases, sexism which we are socialised into, occurs at the same time as being socialised into cultural misogyny. .. boys say "Euuuer, yuk! Pink is a girl's colour", so they are developing the belief of female being lesser and disgusting - it's the visceral conditioning to a 'yuk!' response thing that is key here, not the division into 2 different colours.

I don't think they are parallel things. I think it's more like misogyny is the root, partially hidden, so harder to see, and sexism is the fruiting tree growing from the root.

Not everyone who is sexist it misogynist. Sometimes they are just picking the fruit of the tree. But without the root, the tree would wither away.

I agree with Wheredowe. I’ve yet to meet a sexist comment that wasn’t underpinned by misogyny. Sexism is the belief in harmful, hateful stereotypes about women, which is by definition misogyny. Or to put it another way, misogyny is the theory and sexism is the practice (sexism isn’t the only outworking of misogyny but it’s one of them).

I think sexism can appear to be the lesser of two evils, but when you actually challenge sexism and follow it through with an individual who denies/defends their sexism, you get the realisation there is misogyny underpinning the sexism.

What starts as "women just tend to be better at/prefer/well suited to" starts to unravel and become "women use their looks to do less/enthrall men/keep men as wage slaves".

Or what starts out as "women just have an interest in fashion and appearance men don't have time for" becomes "women who don't remove all their body hair below their eyes are dirty and disgusting".

Etc

I (a woman for what it’s worth) am probably pretty sexist and I’m not a misogynist although for a time in my teens I was (had a bit of a Julius Evola phase...). I used to say God made me a woman to punish my misogyny.

Sexism is assumptions based on sex. Misogyny is hatred of women. I think the word is over used at the moment. People use it when they mean sexism against women rather than actual hatred or contempt for women as a group.

Seafret makes a good point that sexism against women usually entails some view that we are less than - so can slide towards misogyny. But there are also other kinds - eg. benevolent sexism where people (men) think of women as needing looking after. And the kind where they think of us as 'other' and mysterious , to be put on a pedestal rather than farty human beings like any other.