Goat dies after violent attack by men **Title edited by MNHQ - distressing article in OP post**

I don't understand. What would you have "men" do that they don't already do ? And saying something like "stop raping" is not a constructive answer. If saying "stop xxx" was sufficient to persuade men from a particular course of action then the world would be quite different I'm sure.

Someone said "men" could stop all crime tomorrow if they wanted to ?

So I ask again - what are any of you doing to stop bad men being bad ? Why should other men, many of whom do more to stop the bad men being bad than any woman ever has, will or can, take more responsibility for it than you ? Your logic seems to be "because they have a penis".

TheCountryGirl

You didn't answer the question - clearly YOU are prepared to hold "men" collectively accountable for the bad things other men do, are you therefore prepared to hold them collectively responsible for the good things other men do ?

So yes...men bloody well SHOULD stand up and do something about it!

Other men already do more than women do to control violent and dangerous men.

Aww cute.

It's a bit silly to play cheerleader to the achievements of men while completely ignoring that they were the only that could!!
For centuries women couldn't work,get an education,vote,own property,or even say no to their husband. And even so,some still managed to break the mould,make inventions,help others,fight for others despite being threatened,laughed at,their achievements stolen,ignored and derided.

If men are so enlightened why did it take until the 90's to make marital rape illegal?

bowl that is grim, but not unfamiliar. I remember as a teen a group of male friends had in jokes prior to me hanging out with them and one of them was mocked for being oversexed and all his escapades of pouncing on young women friends. One of their 'hilarious' anecdotes was that he had once suggested "why don't we all rape Sally?*". They declined his suggestion but it was a source of mirth rather than concern. I asked whether they thought he'd been serious and they thought he was but it wouldn't happen because no one else was up for it. At the time I had trouble believing he meant it and couldnt square it with their blithe minimisation, but that situation has been formative for me.

*not her real name.

So yes...men bloody well SHOULD stand up and do something about it!

Totally!

The very idea of a class of people taking collective responsibility for crimes they have not committed is abhorrent to the vast majority of people - whether they are members of that class or not.

That's a contradiction. Their class has committed those crimes.

And collective responsibility doesn't mean 'be punished as a group' it is acknowledging this and owning this as crimes belonging to the male class. Acknowledging the impact of this. Making adjustments for this. Not indulging in false equivalence, namalt, wam, etc.

(Some) women and children will be scared of men because of it - irrespective of whether they have perpetrated a crime or not.

I am reminded of the actual op at this point and realise we're going off topic.

So with the goat thing. I don't expect individual men to feel wretched about it because they share the same sex, but some sort of examination/discussion of masculinity and the conditions that lead (only?) men to do these disgusting, twisted sexual things would be good. I haven't read the linked article because I don't want it to follow me around.

Bowelofbabelfish :( my only shock is that they let you hear it.

You are all spectacularly naive.

Shall we all agree to ignore the goady men with their manly views?

I don't accept any of that. It's you that is spouting nonsense.

😉If you say so.

Bowl I can well believe that. Far too many men enjoy the power they have over women. And the ones who don't, do little or in most cases, NOTHING to make it better for women.

I love belonging to a free and democratic society where equality before the law and justice are upheld. It isn't perfect but it's pretty good in comparison to many. A shame a few of the posters on here do not hold the same views

One thing I remember that really opened my eyes was at university hearing a group of about twelve men I’d considered fairly decent discuss what would happen in a world with no repercussions. It started as ‘would you go looting?’ Sort of joky stuff and deteriorated from there. Every man but one ended up saying that if they could get away with it in a world with no consequences they’d rape.

It shook me deeply. I’ll never forget it. If I could go back I’d quiz the one who said they wouldn’t more closely. And tell the rest what I thought of them.

I don't accept any of that. It's you that is spouting nonsense.

There have been a number of violent and brutal sex attacks in India. It’s a huge, huge problem there. The statistics are shocking.

Nonsense sawdust. All men benefit from those among them who are violent, particularly to women. All men benefit from women being subordinate. So yes...men bloody well SHOULD stand up and do something about it! It is THEIR sex causing untold problems and suffering yet they do fuck all to stop it.

They could stop it tomorrow if they wanted. But they don't. Because they like it too much.

The very idea of a class of people taking collective responsibility for crimes they have not committed is abhorrent to the vast majority of people - whether they are members of that class or not.

Seems to me to be the view of a very tiny minority.

Please explain

The time has come for men to take collective responsibility for wrongdoings of their sex and make meaningful reparations.

Really ? Seems to me to be the view of a very tiny minority.

X posted countrygirl

So you're saying that you would rather that men actually did do nothing about other violent men who break the law?
I'm saying men and women together should find ways to deal with violent men who break the law. That will help to ensure the response will be responsible, ethical and appropriate and not one that perpetuates or widens inequality between women and men.

Do you think that laws are a waste of time ?
No. They are essential for restraining the powerful from exploiting and abusing their power over the less powerful. Although they still need re-jigging to meet this ideal.

Do think that the laws men came up with are stupid and should be struck from the statute book?
Some yes, others no.

What laws would you have instead?
The Sex Discrimination Act and other equality laws have be campaigned for by women.

How would you have them enforced?
Better than they are now. It is ongoing.

I would contend that by and large we live in the most civilised time in human history
Indeed. The emancipation of women has benefitted the whole of society.

and that men work incredibly hard to keep a lid on violence and murder.
This is a bit iffy really though isn't it? I know this could seem provocative, but many men who perpetrate domestic violence are in the armed forces or in the police.

If men should share collective blame for atrocities should they also share collective praise and thanks for the good things?
I am not sure if 'blame' is the right word. Perhaps 'take collective responsibility' is more appropriate. Also men regularly take credit for women's work and minimise the value of women's input, so to give thanks and praise to men for the 'good things' probably translates in the real world as 'allow men to take credit for women's achievements'.

If not, why not?
The time has come for men to take collective responsibility for wrongdoings of their sex and make meaningful reparations.

If men should share collective blame for atrocities should they also share collective praise and thanks for the good things ? If not, why not ?*

Oh come on - men ALWAYS try to take the credit for other men's inventions and good works. If I had a pound for every time a man reminded us that it was MEN who invented most things (totally ignoring that women were denied a university education and not even allowed to patent in their name) I'd be a very rich woman!

Funnily enough, none of them are quite so ready to share the collective blame for all the destruction and devastation men have wreaked upon women, children and animals.

Please feel free rebel

WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice

So you're saying that you would rather that men actually did do nothing about other violent men who break the law ? Do you think that laws are a waste of time ? Do think that the laws men came up with are stupid and should be struck from the statute book ? What laws would you have instead ? How would you have them enforced ?

I would contend that by and large we live in the most civilised time in human history, and that men work incredibly hard to keep a lid on violence and murder.

If men should share collective blame for atrocities should they also share collective praise and thanks for the good things ? If not, why not ?

@WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice can I steal that?

Btw the 'dark' is referring dark deeds.

You are all spectacularly naive.

Women know that we are as much in danger from white knights as we are from dark rogues.

Genuine questions here :

1. Who do you think will drag these freaks out of their homes and force them into a confined space ?

2. Who will stop them getting out of said space with deadly force if needs be ?

3. Who will be handcuffed to these maniacs whilst they sit in the dock and are given a fair hearing ?

4. Who invented the system whereby they get a fair hearing and are not subject to summary justice ?

5. White men in western europe who need to "do more about this" should do what ?- take over other these less civilised countries and have them live by our laws ?

Men are well aware that men can be dangerous that is why they invented laws, legal frameworks, police forces and prisons - systems to give men (and now women) a say in what those laws are and what they punishments should be for those who deviate from them. This is called "civilisation".

What do you think could be done differently ? What are you all doing to directly control and remove the threat posed by violent men ? Telling all men (including the ones who risk their lives for our civilisation and country) that they are responsible and getting angry that they feel insulted by that ?

You are all spectacularly naive.