Goat dies after violent attack by men **Title edited by MNHQ - distressing article in OP post**

The statistics for rape in the UK, are 1 in 5 woman are raped, on research done on university campus it was 1 in 3. I am guessing those people will be in their twenties. As any woman is aware rape is a UK problem too.

Bingo's only any fun when you don't fill your card completely on the basis of one single post, Clarice.

MRA bingo anyone?

This does not legally constitute rape. Life is cheap in many countries. The news item to which you refer took place in a culture distant from the UK in many ways. They were abhorrent acts but many of you are correlating these acts with the UK which I don't think gives your arguments credence. My son's age group, 20s do not behave in the way some people have suggested and are very aware of their duty to ensure equality . However there are always men and women whose behaviour does not conform to what a normal educated society would reasonably expect and they are brought to trial under the justice system and if found guilty punished appropriately. ALL men are not how you described, and to suggest all men are culpable for the behaviour of all other men is disingenuous a bit like suggesting all women are guilty of infanticide because one or two develop pnd, paranoia, or whatever else has caused the act.

bd that’s a very insightful post.

I think you’d be hard pressed to find 8 women in the world that would penetrate a pregnant goat to death and take pleasure in its pain and distress and yet there were 8 men in a village that were well up for it. They find each other.

My dh has been semi-ostracised from a group of friends because he refused to go to a strip club and went home instead - they don’t ask him to go anywhere now. I’ve only just made the connection from your post.

and the ones who stay silent are noticed, but

That should say "unnoticed" near the end

UptonSnodbury, the question feminists rightly ask and men should also be asking is: just how did eight rapists find each other to perform this act of gang rape, given that only 6% of men rape? We should ask this question every time there is a gang rape.

I have a hypothesis as to why: almost all men collude with rapists to defend and normalise rape.

• Men commonly joke about rape in a way that normalises and sanitises perpetration, e.g. this joke, superficially a "gay" joke, that is predicated on the rape of Kylie Minogue and the assumption that any man would rape Kylie if given the chance.
• Men close ranks to defend other men who abuse, often using financial or business considerations as an excuse, e.g. my dad firing a cleaner who complained of sexual harassment, instead of disciplining the perp.
• Men propagate rape myths about women "deserving it" for being drunk, wearing something revealing, or being pretty or full-busted. Like the Kylie joke above, these myths tell men that any man would rape if the victim was attractive enough or he could get away with it.
• Men who object are shunned and the ones who stay silent are noticed, but the rapists notice each other as the ones who laugh loudly, and so they find each other.

The above creates an environment in which rapists find each other easily. Should a man refuse to take part in a gang rape, he is shunned and mocked or even attacked as a risk because he might report, and so men coerce each other into rape.

When men are not actively challenging this culture of rape normalisation, they are part of the problem because the rapists carry on thinking that what they are doing is normal and they carry on raping unimpeded by social censure.

*Fermats" - like I said, MAKE IT STOP!

it is a work in progress.

Well I’d suggest progress isn’t fast enough.

Look, when women say stuff like this and men start the NAMALT shit it gets our backs up. Why? Because we know it’s not all men, or we’d all be on an island and be repelling invaders with flamethrowers .

The problem is that it’s quite a lot of men. And that even the decent men benefit from the situation and don’t do anything to change it.

I know racial analogies are a bit shit but it’s like my black friends talking to me about racism and me insisting that because I’m not racist and we have Laws Against That Kind Of Thing then racism isn’t an issue. Thing is, it IS an issue. And one that I, as someone who is white probably don’t even really see a lot of the time. Now that doesn’t make me a terrible person. It doesn’t make me culpable.

But I also have to face the very uncomfortable truth that I, as a white person in a society in the western world benefit from that social setup. now that’s not a nice thought to have is it? But it doesn’t make it less true.

Should I be personally culpable for centuries of slavery and abuse and society being set up along colonial lines? No. Should I be aware of it and listen when people tell me their lived experiences and opinions, call it out when I see it and be open to the knowledge that the deck is still pretty stacked towards white people? Yes.

Why can’t men do that? Why can’t they say ‘yeah. It is an issue. Tell me about it. What can I do as a decent man?’

Oh, and please (excuse me for some unladylike shouting and swearing) CAN WE STOP FEEDING THE FUCKING TROLL? Maybe he'll get bored and go away if we stop reacting, or possibly get so annoyed by being ignored that he loses his shit completely and does something ban-able.

I'm with AnyFucker on this one - MN should not have expunged the word "rape" from the title. Male violence doesn't go away just because we don't use the words lest we offend someone's delicate sensibilities. That makes about as much sense as thinking "bad things won't happen if I don't step on the cracks in the pavement."

Make it stop. Make it stop. Make it stop.

Oh and I'm still waiting for an answer as to why it took until the 90' for marital rape to become illegal.

If women's histories weren't actively suppressed by the 'victors' ie men, then we would all marvel at how many achievements women have succeeded under most aversive circumstances, and how little men have achieved when all the wifework and so much more has been done for them.

@stevejobsspectacles there is plenty if abuse,murder,rape,domestic violence committed by men as a class in the UK that MEN (regardless of race or nationality you twat!!) can take responsibility for.

It is MEN who try to claim credit for other men's achievements yet wash their hands of any responsibility when their sex causes destruction.

They don't wash their hands, as pointed out they created civilisation and laws and justice systems to deal with it - it is a work in progress.

Hang on TheCountryGirl you're not serious ? Was the union pacific conceived planned and built by women ? This is a double standard, an individual man who acts violently represents all men, but yet an individual man who discovers or creates something deemed important is not ?

If you look at men as a class and women as a class - who built the modern world and everything in it ? Should we go around saying this ? If not why not ?

WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice

Look around you. What did women as a class create ? If it is not sexist to point out that the fact that men are much more dangerous and violent than women, which I accept, why is not acceptable to point out this ?

This world would be NOTHING without women. Those clothes you wear? Made by women. There fruit you eat? Women. The coffee you drink? Women. And every single person alive today? Women.

Steve, what on earth are you talking about? It is MEN who try to claim credit for other men's achievements yet wash their hands of any responsibility when their sex causes destruction.

It is only individual men who achieve great things - men as a class are selfish, entitled, aggressive and I certainly do hold them all responsible.

What GREAT things do men as a class do? Enlighten me.

civilisation (created by men btw)

Okay. You have outed yourself as an ignorant, sexist, card-carrying misogynist with this (crap in parentheses).

Why are you here?

This is a feminism board on a site called mumsnet.

Needy, desperate, attention-seeking men who try to worm their unwelcome selves into women's awareness can look elsewhere.

And since men need to take collective responsibility and this case was in another jurisdiction - how do you propose that white british men "take responsibility" for the actions of men in another country ?

@stevejobsspectacles stop watching porn.
Stop using prostitutes and strip clubs.
Stop promoting laddish culture and behaviour.
Stop laughing at,sharing and ignoring sexist and rape jokes.
Stop putting someone's talent of kicking a ball for example above any wrongdoing they do.
Stop shouting and harassing women and girls on the street or ignoring it when they witness it.
Stop ignoring sexism and actively challenge it.
Stop moaning when a woman expresses in any way she doesn't feel safe.
Stop promoting "toxic masculinity ".

Oh I could go on...
These are just simple things that would go a long way.

Rebel

Well suppose that men decided that collectively they would not punish men who committed a crime against women. According to TheCountryGirl men do fuck all anyway. You can't on the one hand claim that civilisation (created by men btw) creates a veneer over society that keeps us safe compared to the alternative and simultaneously state that men do fuck all to protect women.

Why has the title of this thread had the word "rape" taken out by HQ ?

How does it help to erase the sexual violence that men do because it offends the eyes of a few posters

I am fucking disgusted by that

And tbh the undercurrent from some posts seem to be "Men know best what's good for you and your safety. Men protect you. You wouldn't want to go without that would you? Don't upset the apple cart."

Which feels very very off.