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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

IW on Loose Women

56 replies

SockNRolla · 07/08/2018 12:26

Hi all,

IW is on Loose Women in a few moments. I think she is going to discuss GRA. Apologies if a thread has already been started.

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NotTerfNorCis · 07/08/2018 13:34

Oops crosspost!

SockNRolla · 07/08/2018 13:34

TBF to IW, they did explain the implications of self ID reasonably well and the dangers of no follow-up support.
It was classic IW (me, me, me) but she did confess how she is putting herself on the line by offering her opinions. An insight into how heated this debate is under the surface.

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NotTerfNorCis · 07/08/2018 13:34

India was once quite outspoken in what they are saying now, but then they recanted, not long after the CBB experience... seems they have gone back to their old beliefs and are no longer afraid of being called truscum.

R0wantrees · 07/08/2018 13:33

IW wants the legal title "woman" to be afforded to old school trans sexuals only

IW has changed her position again then. Immediately after the MN interview on Julia H-B, she seemed to build a lot of bridges and align with many prominant twitter TRAs (much retweeting of Gooliana Mimmymum etc I recall).
She also said she had seen the light with regards self-id.

There was a bit of talk amongst some Twitter TRAs about forgiving her after that (& the stunning Pink News article)

Datun · 07/08/2018 13:31

As far as I remember India was always against self ID and every Tom, Dick and Harry being included. It's a common complaint that there is, or should be, a grading of transwomen's authenticity.

I think she was then piled on by Transactivists, so changed her mind. But now appears to have changed it back.

I understand. Everyone knows that there is, indeed, a difference between transvestites and men with gender dysphoria.

Except there is now no way to put that particular genie back in the bottle. It's become all or nothing.

Burntofferings0 · 07/08/2018 13:29

Think she only made that point as it could impact health care services given. So really she’s still only looking out for herself ..

Burntofferings0 · 07/08/2018 13:28

I could feel Gloria really wanted to say more and I’m so glad the ladies were not gushing! I think they got some important issues out.

I think the panel did ok!

ItWasCold · 07/08/2018 13:27

So it sounds like IW is now against self id, and believes medical assessment is necessary? I thought she made a sensible point about demedicalisation potentially affecting healthcare provision for transexual people

NothingOnTellyAgain · 07/08/2018 13:26

Oh this interesting.

IW wants the legal title "woman" to be afforded to old school trans sexuals only

So what we have is a subset of men who are already legally counted in with women for some (most) stuff. Now other subsets of men want in, the original subset are trying to shut the door. But, the door was opened by them in the first place.

It's fascinating.

However, if IW wants to make the case that these other men don't belong there then they can feel free.

The point about children.

Anyone who "transes" from male to female is stepping down in the hierarchy. They risk homophobia. Social norms around masculinity are strongly enforced.

Transing from female to male is very different. You are stepping "up". Gender non conformity in women is policed obviously but not in quite the same way. "Tomobys" have always been an OK thing to be, feminine boys, not so much...

I don't think that people who grew up male should be commenting on transboys, their motivations etc.

this blockers as a "pause" thing is awful. Lots of stuff happens at puberty, to the brain as well as the body. Yuo separate from parents, a necessary part of growing up. The classic teen behaviour is there for a reason. That gets stopped - the brain does not go through adolescence... I don't think we know what the long term consequences are.

R0wantrees · 07/08/2018 13:26

This is the person who says that women who don't shave their legs are dirty, is that right?

Yes last year on Woman's Hour!!!

Jenni Murray wrote about it (and was then publically censured by the BBC for the article)

(extract)
"The fury that a male-to-female transsexual could be so ignorant of the politics that have preoccupied women for centuries hit me again last year — 16 years after I had met Carol. This time I was speaking to another trans woman, India Willoughby, who had hit the headlines after appearing on the ITV programme Loose Women.

India held firmly to her belief that she was a “real woman”, ignoring the fact that she had spent all of her life before her transition enjoying the privileged position in our society generally accorded to a man. In a discussion about the Dorchester hotel’s demands that its female staff should always wear make-up, have a manicure and wear stockings over shaved legs, she was perfectly happy to go along with such requirements. There wasn’t a hint of understanding that she was simply playing into the stereotype — a man’s idea of what a woman should be.

She described hairy legs on a woman as “dirty”. But hairy legs are not considered dirty in a man. Did she not know that the question of whether a woman should shave her legs or her a rmpits had been a topic of debate among women for an awfully long time? And that to describe a woman who chose not to shave as dirty was insulting and again suggested an ignorance of sexual politics?

Unsurprisingly, my polite and informed line of questioning exposed me to a barrage of criticism on social media. I was a Terf and didn’t understand what Simone de Beauvoir, the author of one of the great feminist tracts, The Second Sex, meant when she wrote: “One is not born, but rather becomes, a woman.”

As a matter of fact, I have understood perfectly what de Beauvoir meant ever since I read her as a teenage girl. Her subject was that “second sex”. She used the word sex advisedly.

Your sex, male or female, is what you’re born with and determines whether you’ll provide the sperm or the eggs in the reproductive process. What de Beauvoir was analysing was gendered socialisation.

In other words, the girl who grows into a woman goes through a lifetime of pressure to become the socially constructed idea of what a woman should be, regardless of her innate talents, abilities or ambitions. It’s what feminism has sought to challenge. She did not mean that an individual born into the male sex, socialised into the expectations of the masculine gender, can simply decide to take hormones and maybe have surgery and “become a woman”. (continues)

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/be-trans-be-proud-but-dont-call-yourself-a-real-woman-frtld7q5c

CoolCarrie · 07/08/2018 13:26

To be fair India did say that it shouldn’t be without medical input.

CoolCarrie · 07/08/2018 13:25

That was an interesting comment from Saira Khan

SuburbanRhonda · 07/08/2018 13:24

Watching now.

It’s all about India, isn’t it? There’s a surprise.

SockNRolla · 07/08/2018 13:23

Glad that sexuality is being discussed by doctor.

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CoolCarrie · 07/08/2018 13:19

Thank you Doctor !

SockNRolla · 07/08/2018 13:19

Sorry - I keep posting too soon! I have a wriggly baby on my lap.

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SockNRolla · 07/08/2018 13:17

Difference between transsexual/gender

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Burntofferings0 · 07/08/2018 13:17

I’m hoping Saira Khan will have an interesting view on it.

I still live in hope that most women will challenge it tbh but I’m a bit dubious as I don’t think IW would be on it if she was going to get a tough ride

CoolCarrie · 07/08/2018 13:16

This is going to be interesting, but on the other hand can’t India speak about any thing else? Probably not as India is a one trick pony. I would love to have the audience participation sometimes!

SockNRolla · 07/08/2018 13:15

I think as soon as it goes to ITV - Loose Women / This Morning etc. it becomes mainstream and easier to chat about in passing.

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NameChangedAgain18 · 07/08/2018 13:15

This is the person who says that women who don't shave their legs are dirty, is that right?

Yes. Just think of all the germs and bacteria your leg hair contains, unlike that on your head, of course.

Burntofferings0 · 07/08/2018 13:11

I also mean IW not ‘she’

Being mithered by a toddler !

NothingOnTellyAgain · 07/08/2018 13:10

I've never watched this prog before :D so let's see how this goes.

SockNRolla · 07/08/2018 13:09

@Burntofferings0

Yes to the panelists. I can imagine who would challenge this and can assume who will the more critical today.

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Melamin · 07/08/2018 13:07

She hit Godwin's Law pretty early on in that article LOL Grin