I can't tell if the Labour leadership is anti-Semitic but their treatment of women has me finding it not hard to believe

@gendercritter

"Doesn't mean Jews deserve to be treated badly but equally the Israeli government shouldn't be above criticism."

Actually the "but" makes this statement completely anti-semitic. Why are you equating Jewish people - who lives across the world in many different countries - to the Israeli government?

Here are some different versions of your statement - let me know how you feel about them:

"Doesn't mean Muslims deserve to be treated badly but equally the Iranian government shouldn't be above criticism."

"Doesn't mean black people deserve to be treated badly but equally the Nigerian government shouldn't be above criticism."

Does that help?

Thank you heresy. I see what you're saying

With a very heavy heart I'll probably be voting Conservative.

LibDems LGBT twitter acc is enough not to vote for them, many of their senior figures are quite nasty to and about women

Labour, I actually voted labour last election, Corbin worried me but I thought more Tory government would be worse. The anti semitism is a major factor, I was unaware there was a problem at las times election as I was more concerned with getting Tories out, on closer look I'm disgusted by Labour. Their attitude to women just finishes me, if they get their way on eroding women's rights well all be in a worse position than under Tory women hating islamaphobia

What a set of shitty options

For the opposition party in the British democracy to think that it is acceptable to accuse British citizens of disloyalty purely because of their religion is disgusting.

It's utterly unacceptable when people accuse British Muslims of disloyalty to their country, purely because they are Muslim.

Why should it be any different for British Jews?

I've had a good read of those and Googled around it a bit. There do seem to be quite a few objections around about the full definition. It gives me an understanding of the sorts of things Jews are unfairly accused of, how they continue to experience persecution in a democratic and developed country and also how someone could be unfairly accused of being anti-Semitic by these definitions. I can think of two or three possible examples. I can see why someone would object but I also note they the definition has been very carefully put together by a good number of likely impartial people.

That's a really helpful comparison/ explanation heresy thanks. I don't know enough about it really but that has helped me.

gendercritter

You appear to have taken issue with the definitions, but by virtue of your own post you have just said you accept the right to self-determination and that you wouldn't make the Nazi comparison, so I personally don't think you've done anything that would cross those lines.

These are not my own definitions of antisemitism, but ones that have been carefully thought out by the IHRA.

I have absolutely NO interest in arguing the Middle-East conflict, and I don't think it is relevant here. I merely brought up the definition in light of the anti-Zionism comment. My own experiences of hearing the debate around that particular subject says that there exists a double-standard by which Israel is judged (in my opinion), and that antisemitic tropes can bleed in to the argument.

I do not think Israel is above reproach, or shouldn't be criticized. Far from it.

However, when you start equating all Israelis with their government (or worse comparisons), or accusing the very existence of the state to be racist, then you've overstepped the mark. It is this kind of language that often gets hidden by the phrase "anti-Zionism," in my view.

To illustrate:
Saudi Arabia has a poor record on women's rights, and the rights of homosexuals. I think that is okay to state that fact and to criticize such policies. This absolutely does not mean that we can ever say that all Saudi Arabians are sexist homophobes, because that would be a gross generalization and racist. It would be even worse to say that just because Saudi Arabia is an Islamic state, this somehow means we should judge all Muslims by the practices of Saudi Arabia - such statements would be clear anti-Muslim bigotry/Islamophobia.

but if you crash around displacing people

Um. I think we had more than a bit of a hand in that. Glass houses n' all...

gendercritter I don't think that what you have said goes against either of the points you highlighted.

That's exactly what it doesn't do.

I take issue with these two Heresy

Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.

Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.

I'd genuinely like to think I'm not anti-Semitic. I studied Jewish history at school and empathise enormously for the suffering Jewish people have experienced. I have only ever felt that anti-Semitism needs stamping out very assertively. But Israel is a complex issue.

Should every people have a right to self-determination? Of course. The Kurdish people are another group who don't have their own state and I think everyone should - it's a basic to have a home. But the foundation of Israel was enormously complicated and from my limited knowledge of it seems to have been handled very badly. Palestine has a right to self-determination too and to have a nation state which is a safe home. I don't believe this is an issue of racism, but if you crash around displacing people, saying 'this land is holy to us' when it's holy also to the people you're shoving out - there needs to be more thought. That's an issue involving the Israeli government, not a religion.

Do I think the way Israel has handled Palestinian people is ok? No. I wouldn't compare them to the Nazi's but I do think their treatment has been a disgrace on many levels. It isn't a simple issue. Doesn't mean Jews deserve to be treated badly but equally the Israeli government shouldn't be above criticism.

If arguing those things makes one an anti-Semite, that's very concerning.

Gorgon, Confessions. I hear so many Jewish people saying they are genuinely scared of what will happen to them if Corbyn gets into power, and I've seen with my own eyes some of the tweets and comments which are allegedly merely (yeah, right) anti-Zionist, but in fact look like they're straight out of the "protocols of the elders of Zion".

Being critical of IsrRli policy on the west bank (as indeed one of my Israeli friends is) is a completely different thing from the rampant and virulent anti-Semitism I see coming from some members of the Labour party.

I stuck it out for a long time in the hope that my vote could count for something at constituency level, but I realised about six months ago that the misogyny and anti-Semitism was so entrenched that I had to leave. I'm now politically homeless like so many others.

The Corbynites I know ( including my secular Jewish DH, despite his DM telling him that what Labour have said is anti semetic and she will never vote for them again) answer all the anti semitism questions with what aboutery, saying that the Tories are also anti semetic, that the right wing press have it in for him etc etc. They are not admitting there is a problem with anti semitism or misogyny in the LP. They would rather intimidate dissenters than actually address the issues. I won't vote at all probably in the next election. My Labour vote never counted anyway as I live in a safe Tory seat, but I want Corbyn to go. I don't want my vote used to prove how popular JC is, it's just the system that's against him. The 'system' that has apparently meant they haven't won an election since 1979 because the only successful Labour government was Tory in disguise. It's not up to the Tories to make an opposition party electable, it's up to them to do it, and they haven't in that case. The print press is dying on its arse. What excuse will they come up with when they can't blame the right wing press? Corbyn would shit himself if he was elected because he would have to actually follow through on the crap he spouts.

Sarah
I will let others speak more clearly on this issue, but it's worth remembering that anti-Zionism is a really loaded term which actually could be a form of antisemitism. It's one thing to criticize the Israeli government, and say that you are anti-Netanyahu and his policies. It's another thing entirely to deny the Jewish people (and Jewish people alone) the right to self-determination including self-governance and nationhood. Many people use the Israel/Palestine dispute to express genuinely antisemitic views. I have seen it personally - it's frightening how much some people start to froth at the mouth as soon as you say "Israel."

If you haven't read it, I would recommend looking at the working definition of antisemitism developed by the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance. Some important notes when it comes to Israel are these:

Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust.

Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.

Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.

Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.

Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g., claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.

Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.

Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.

www.holocaustremembrance.com/working-definition-antisemitism?usergroup=7

Hang on I think I clicked on the same link twice. The other one has clearer accusations. I will read up further on all this.

I was asking the question in good faith and I have had a look at those twitter feeds but I can only see anti zionism unless I've missed something? Who are the holocaust deniers they are harbouring? I wouldn't call myself a Corbyn supporter either.

Here just to confirm everything @GorgonLondon has been saying.

And for those who think it's to do with "Israel" - it's really not.

JC is an anti-Semite because he thinks Jews are all rich bankers (we're really, really not) upholding capitalism.

There was a really good article about Labour's problem with anti-semitism in the Guardian about a week ago. By Jonathan Freedland. What he said could have been well-applied to the issue of misogyny in the party.

In addition, I think I've just become aware of a lack of intellectual rigour and moral fibre in all parties around the issue

The moment I became very very uneasy about JC was the moment people were singing that godawful song of his name at Glastonbury

I will never vote Conservative though. Their record on the NHS and Education policy is woeful

Ann Sinnott is a rarity, one of the "very few".

This is completely unacceptable to the Jewish community of the UK and makes me feel sick to my stomach... Gorgon may I ask how we can help?

On a separate note (and I don't want to derail this thread), I was wondering if anyone has come across any academic analyses of potential similarities between misogyny and antisemitism? They strike me as very different, yet share some characteristics. Notably they are both part of the "oldest hatreds," seem to be ever-present throughout time and place, and tend to mutate. Antisemitism is unique, of course, but I find it interesting that accusations of antisemitism and misogyny seem to be dismissed like this by those on the "left," when I feel like they might take other accusations of discrimination more seriously. Is there a reason these two, in particular, are blind spots?

JellySlice see the Ann Sinnott thread.

Re: Tories - don’t know any - my dad was one, he bought into Thatcher’s lie that success would come if you just worked hard enough, but these days, nope.

I suspect there are Tories that are anti Self ID, but I wouldn't say I was sure of it.

Gorgon my friend is wrestling with whether he is willing to stand again, I’m still on the ‘changes to parties happen from within’ team, but I am probably more optimistic than most!

If an election was called for tomorrow I'd be voting UKIP on principle as they're the only ones not sucking up to the trans cult.

Gorgon, when I read about the anti-semitism issue within Labour, it made me think of the principle behind of the 10th Rule of Misogyny: the worst thing about male violence is that it makes men look bad.

Some Labour members seem to think that the absolute worst thing about anti-semitism is that it makes Jeremy Corbyn look bad.

And that tells its own tale.

I couldn't vote Tory, ever. But I don't like JC. He is such an old fuddy duddy. He was invited to Glastonbury before the Brexit vote but couldn't be arsed and the way the female contenders were treated in the leader election that he won was misogynistic. Can you really be defined as left wing if you are a misogynist? I mean: I consider that to be left wing is to believe in equal rights for all. Not just rights for white christian males with a certain amount of education.

@heresyandwitchcraft Thank you. I know that Corbyn and his followers don't represent most people in the UK.

@BettyduMonde That's appalling. I wonder though, how much longer can decent people such as you and your friend carry on representing a party that's become the home for the kind of horrific racism you describe? Can you really knock on doors and defend them to Jewish people? It sounds as if you completely understand and recognise the reality for Jewish people in Labour today.

@SarahCarer I will take your comment at face value (although I've encountered a lot of Corbyn supporters who continue to express amazement and bafflement at the idea that anyone has found evidence of antisemitism in Labour) and point you in the direction of two leading lights in the fight against antisemitism in Labour, one of whom has reported over 1200 individual Labour members already and has a backlog of another 1000. There are very, very, very many examples on their Twitter feeds if you would like to read them:
twitter.com/LabourAgainstAS
twitter.com/gnasherjew

Olennas I agree with you. Until fairly recently I might also have thought Corbyn was 'only' ineffectual at tackling antisemitism, but recent weeks and months have made it clear that he is himself absolutely an antisemite. Articles saying this have been published by labour MPs and ex-ministers in the mainstream press.

I am heartened that so many people are seeing through it now, but very frightened and sickened that it has reached this point. Twitter is an absolute cesspool, Jewish people are being told to 'take a shower' and worse.