People apparently support trans

I would suggest anyone who is living full time in there role as evidenceed by documentation in there name eg bank card driving license passport is the point when someone is afforded those rights. is that a rasonable answer

How would I know, by sight, who is living full time? How is living full time proof that they are no threat to women and girls?

Yes, Bespin, Betty is right. I don't know what the baseline is either. I just keep getting slightly creepy intonations from TRAs that 'we're already in your spaces and you didn't even notice'.

Anyone who has been here more than a week knows this is not true.

At least you don't get the matey, aren't we all chums here comments - be grateful for small mercies.

thebewilderness why so personal I know nothing about you except what you tell me I make no assumptions, you know nothing about me if the only way you think you can debate is like that then I feel you are adding very little to this

"But people grooming my daughter into binding her breasts and creeps getting their wanger out in public while advising the government that women don't really need boundaries are very much pressing concerns.

You might not consider those things important, but sadly, that shows we have a very different perspective."

I'm sure we're capable of a better level of conversation. This is snide, it's haranguing, it's baiting.

I also oppose public indecency. Though how that's relevant here, beats me.

In terms of someone "grooming" your daughter, I'm not sure who would do this or why. At some point, a young person might come to their parents and have a conversation about their sense of self. This is driven by the individual, not by some secret transgender cabal.

pombear

I would suggest anyone who is living full time in there role as evidenceed by documentation in there name eg bank card driving license passport is the point when someone is afforded those rights. is that a rasonable answer

I am a reasonable kind person who is a feminist and as been for years I have hopefully grown as a person over that time as we all do
Anyone who has been here more than a week knows this is not true.

This is most definitely not a game for the women and girls whose right to privacy and public assembly is under threat. Try telling that to the people who see those spaces as an ideal venue for sexy roleplaying - if the trans movement hadn't welcomed those people under the umbrella we wouldn't be in the situation we're in now.

It wasn't GC feminists who led us to this place.

CassieBrighter

Feminists all over the world consider the rolling back of women's rights under the guise of equality in the UK to be of enormous importance to all of us.

They are at the sharp end right now and we are in this fight with them.
If you have more important things to do I suggest you go well.

Bespin, you’ll have to list the access to services currently available before we could answer your question.

So many changes have happened gradually and/or socially without consultation of women’s groups that we genuinely do not know the baseline.

Bespin
At no point in my posts have I suggested rights should be rolled back.

I understand you want to change society back
You assume too much. Not that you would necessarily know, but I was at the forefront some years ago of making changes in the organisation I worked for to support transgender people. There's a mythology and spin currently growing from TRAs that we're all right-wing luddites. It's a serious mistaken assumption.

I asked you specific questions about your thoughts about how to make this work.

You say you're concerned about 'one of us', and I assume that to be 'people like you' being assaulted by male-bodied people if you were put on a male ward.

What are the limits you would suggest are put on who can and can't be on a female ward?

Or are you OK with 'anyone who says they're a woman is a woman' and will be bunked up next to you? As surely that just puts you, as 'one of us' at risk again?

You seem to have avoided my question and instead thrown an insult back at me that I'm a luddite. I'm interested in your answers, not your insults.

ofgs AngryAttackKittens we are all just people this is not a game we are not all pretending to be something this is me. I am a reasonable kind person who is a feminist and as been for years I have hopefully grown as a person over that time as we all do

You have to love the hostage negotiation aspect of this, wherein the supposedly "reasonable" and "feminist" trans activists recognize the awfulness of the Jess Bradley's in their movement (or at least pretend to) and then use those people as leverage to get women to do what they want, ie. if you won't work with us you'll end up stuck with them.

FloralBunting

that's fine does it allow the same access to services as now?

Bespin, Betty made some helpful suggestions about retaining birth sex but putting in place anti-discrimination laws about any and all gender expression. I thought that was a helpful beginning.

pombear as someone just said how do we police it and how do we now. I understand you want to change society back but I don't think you will achieve that you certainly will not in this consultation it would take you years to get a blanket ban in this country as our law system does not work like that and even in the US its not working. rights are a hard thing to take back

Cassie, we're not in the US, so Trump and the resurgence of the pro life movement there are not high up on the agenda here. The pro life movement in the UK is on the back foot, particularly with recent rulings about exclusion areas around a particular clinic, which will likely go nationwide I should think.

These aren't at the forefront of our minds. But people grooming my daughter into binding her breasts and creeps getting their wanger out in public while advising the government that women don't really need boundaries are very much pressing concerns.

You might not consider those things important, but sadly, that shows we have a very different perspective.

FloralBunting

you tell me the answer that they will expect is not ban trans people from spaces. so what is the workable answer what are you going to be happy with this is not a brexit negotiation you don't have to keep saying all or nothing

Bespin

So what's your answer? Where do you draw the line? What would make you comfortable and reduce your personal risk of being sexually assaulted?

Who's 'in' and who's 'out' of female-defined spaces?

Even assuming that women and girls are comfortable with a subset of males in their sex segregated spaces, how is it possible to allow the legitimate ones in while keeping every other male out?

Can we tell who has a right to be there by sight? Or do we just have to believe that men won't abuse the system?

I'm not convinced that there is a safe solution. Before women and girls lose their sex segregated spaces, I think the onus is on the people who want to dismantle the current system to prove that there is no danger to women and girls.

what idiot wrote that, I should hope girls are not sharing with boys, but I'm guessing you mean trans girls.

What is the difference, exactly?

And any new laws have to be workable for trans feminine, trans masculine, non binary, gender fluid and agender people too (and those of us with no gender identity at all).

pombear

Or is it just a specific proportion of the umbrella who get to do so? Who decides?

that's the actual bloody question I can tell you it is not going to be none so what your answer to it that's what they want to know. where is the line how is it safeguarded

I am a feminist if you think I am or not like a lot of other feminist we are not all the same or hold the same view

Back in the day it really wasnt cool to say you were a feminist. It has had a bit of a revamp now that men think it is a good way to attract vulnerable women.

I'll say again what I said a couple of days ago - if a 'not-born' female says that they are a feminist - you need to look at what they are trying to get out of saying they are a feminist. It will be some sort of power. Always.

IncrediblySturdyPyjamas

what idiot wrote that, I should hope girls are not sharing with boys, but I'm guessing you mean trans girls.