People apparently support trans

right it's way past my bed time I may be on holiday but I still have things to do in the real world night all.

FloralBunting I didn't think you were a cow this morning we all have days like that hope tomorrows is a better one.

Anyway, I've got to call it a night here, I have a full day tomorrow. Decent conversation, Bespin, sorry I was a cow this morning.

Bespin, I'm not surprised, genuinely. It's not me putting you together with the myriad under the Stonewall trans umbrella, though, and those are the voices with the ear of lawmakers.
Yes, I know that the creepy nasties won't need to get those protections. But the hinge of it all is that by this change to self ID, they won't have to. The social boundaries in place will begin to be eroded so that actually the GRC won't be any protection for trans people either. Girls will be trained to ignore their instincts. Trans people won't be able to access medical assistance because it's been 'demedicalized' ( and don't think for a minute that a cut-happy government won't throw you right under the bus).

I wish it was a twitch your nose and it's sorted job. But it's just not.

again I'm not saying it's you but there is thus fascination with us especially by men in this society and that toxic masculinity that makes them both attracted and repulsed by us and causes us harm

FloralBunting

I don't blame mumsnet for this anymore than I blame the media or other things these are just symptoms of a society that sees us as other or less than in a lot of ways.

FloralBunting this is the issue and there is a difference with trans people and people who just dress up at weekends believe me I have been there and the difference is large. this is who I think you are referring too in all this but you are putting us all together and some tea also do that and we are clearly not all the same in this, they don't need these protections so will not apply for them. also men will just decide to say they are more so now its been highlighted that they can I am worried for my safety more so now than I have in years

Fanjango, that's really horrible. No excuse at all.

May I ask, though, did GC feminists do it? Have the perpetrators been lurking on MN and planning the attack via threads here? Because violence towards trans people is emphatically rejected here so it's not really the fault of FWR.

Fandango I'm sorry to hear that and I hope they are ok, I am lucky that I have only ever had that happen verbally and I have very good friends who do not back down. I hope some of the reteric in this can be toned down for everyone's sake.

Bespin, I have genuinely never seen transsexuals as anything other than people with a difficult hand. This is not in dispute here, you know that.

But you and I both know there are some incredibly serious issues here, and the consequences are very real for everyone. It is an honest, no snide question - how do women ensure their safety and rights are protected if the social and legal barriers to any man at all helping himself are weakened to the point of obsolescence? How can transwomen be safe if that happens? Where on earth is the bridging point there? If you say you need our spaces to be safe, how does that work? If we're unsafe, then, by extension, you're unsafe.

FloralBunting

Thank you for that all that I can ask for is that we see each other as people trying to do what we think is right do us and those around us I'm a northern lass unfortunately the gobbyness can not be helped sometimes. though I do try

pombear

I'm in favour of some checks and balances I just wanted a simpler less midical system as the waiting is now too long for that to be workable.

on the driving licence manfriday have yet to show that the person as been able to change it back or that there insurance is now valid if they show that then I will be worried and would ask for more checks to be put in I don't want men using trans identity to gain acsess to spaces becauss I'm in them too.

I'm just mortified by this thread. My brothers partner is transgender. You've caught me at a bad time as they were attacked this weekend. They ripped at her knickers..a full trans has gone through a lot of surgery and therapy to get where they are. Negative views lead to actions like they've had...what's there...and can they fight back. I'm sickened.

Bespin, on that we are agreed. The internet is an easy channel for feeding kids all sorts of lies.

Fwiw, I think you are probably one of the most genuine TW onsite, and while you do cock up quite often, partly due to the idiosyncratic posting style, and partly because you're human and prone to a touch of snarky gobshiteyness ( and I can hardly point fingers there) I do genuinely see your distress and frustration that this whole issue generates so much heat and so little light.

FloralBunting

I'm sorry I think I missed the bit when you talked about your daughter I'm sorry that happened to you I would hope anyone would work with both your daughter and family in exploring how they felt I do worry about online unsolicited advice that young people get about a number of topics

Thank you Bespin for addressing a question. I have a couple more, if that's OK, but I appreciate you engaging in the discussion.

(NB I'm off to bed, so I won't be ignoring you after this post, just hopefully asleep.)

I would suggest anyone who is living full time in there role as evidenceed by documentation in there name eg bank card driving license passport is the point when someone is afforded those rights. is that a rasonable answer

You've mentioned upthread being worried about being sexually assaulted (I presume by males, as you related it to being on a male ward) are you not also worried by any relaxing of guidelines that would put you, as a transwoman, at risk from more males?

Is the risk not likely to be increased by:

a) Wonkiness of the 'Living in role' describer - so being able to change documents = living in role? I think a ManFriday poster was able to change their driving licence from female to male with a simple form. Is that 'living in role'?

My documents show I'm female, but most of the stuff I do and present as day-to-day would be indivisible from how you'd describe a male as 'living in their role'. How would I prove I'm female to those who hold the decision power of documentation? With the relaxation towards self-ID, what does 'living in their role'' even mean?

b) Right now, with the current legal rights, there's a process that transexuals go through to ensure most legal documentation is changed with some checks and balances from unbiased assessors.

Are you happy with the status quo?

Or are you pro-self-ID, and keen to make it easier for people to change all of their legal documents with less checks and balances from those assessors?

How would this change reduce your risk as a transwoman from being assaulted by males? Surely it would increase it?

genuinely sorry

thebewilderness

I generally have no idea what half of what you said means. the first bit but I get the second bit I'm guessing you are not from around here and our politicians don't deal in absolutes so none will not be an answer

Cassie, I have gone out of my way to be polite to you and explain the GC position with as much clarity as I could muster.

As soon as I bring in a personal connection as to why this is important to me, you accuse me of being haranguing and baiting?

The public indecency connection is the current situation with Jess Bradley, prominent TRA advising the government about appropriate boundaries for women, while maintaining a blog in which they allegedly chronicles their persistent exposure of their penis in public. Which is a concern for what I would hope were obvious reasons.

As for my daughter, I'm well aware of the nature of the influences in her life, and they have been profoundly unhelpful and almost managed to convince her she was a boy because she hit puberty, hated her body, likes short hair, boys section clothing and stereotypically 'masculine' pursuits. The fact that they have encouraged her to think that it would be a good idea to damage herself physically and pitted her against her parents is certainly what I would call grooming.

thebewilderness why so personal I know nothing about you except what you tell me I make no assumptions, you know nothing about me if the only way you think you can debate is like that then I feel you are adding very little to this

It's the forced teaming that gives me the creeps.
I understand that you are not aware of all the red flags you wave in our face. This is just one of them.
I am not interested in negotiating which rights women should give up to accommodate you. None, is my answer.

so what does that actually look like.

What do you think?

I know a few on here get thst it can be all or nothing and know that there is going to be a compromise cis that's how our politicians work so what does that actually look like.

AngryAttackKittens

I would hope people could treat others with respect and dignity its a small thing very British really lol

It wasn't GC feminists who led us to this place.

in a lot of ways I feel thst this is sadly true. there was always going to be this backlash and pushing only made it more certain to happen. and yes other people jumped on board

We did notice, we were just too polite to say anything. We have now been pushed to the point where politely ignoring the intrusions is no longer a workable option.