People apparently support trans

What I mean by "free" is there is a responsibility to the category

you go into make an interesting point NeedChoos, but I absolutely refute that there is any 'responsibility' inherent in being a woman. I think you are conflating 'cost' and responsibility.

I am not responsible for the actions of nadine dorries!

Datun - do you think this fracturing within the transgender definition is something that may exacerbate? Cause a collapse for the campaign

There are conflicting and vastly different groups within the transgender group as you point out and I think that one of the sub groups is starting to want to separate with a key tangible differentiator - gender dysphoria / surgery etc and prove they are more suitable to the taking the label - irrespective of the suitability?

I'm not sure I've made the points you're referring to NeedChoos- I mostly just add background info to threads. Many people will skip past it, which I completely respect.

I think its important to consider what is actually being said by those advocating for trans-rights, such as India Willoughby, Munroe Bergdorf, Jane Fae, Paris Lees, Benjamin Cohen etc all of whom have a considerable amount of media power and influence

India Willoughby is a journalist as well as a celebrity. She is rarely challenged in the way that she was on the Julia H-B interview. Her comments both on that show and subsequently in the opinion piece she wrote for Pink News are relevent, Not least as they relate particularly to this board and the people who post here.

Nicola Williams discusses India's comments during an interview with Karen Ingala Smith on
Good Morning Britain

"India dared to tell Karen that her website contains a list of crimes committed by men and that this was is a great demonisation.

“I feel really sorry for guys this year – I think they’ve had it really tough”.

India was referring to this; the list of 138 women killed by their male partners or ex-partners last year. This is the annual list that Karen compiles every year with the details of every death in honour of these women. It is the work that told us for the first time that 2-3 woman are killed every week by intimate partners."

Hahaha yes Nothingontelly we are but and you have to agreed
we are being eroded by better messaging and as I said " the shiny new"

What I mean by "free" is there is a responsibility to the category. The costs are painful menstruation, fear of attack, lower wages etc to name but a few..

You cannot opt out of these if you are in the category. You (you generally not a specific poster) don't get to pick and choose which bits of the brand you are apart of. There is also a cost of not supporting and enhancing the brand for future member who also don't get a choice about entry.

If potential members want to join and don't understand the costs associated - how can they value the benefits of the brand?

I'm really not feeling this marketing analogy.

We are people not a bespoke check.

Why enter a segment that has no relevancy for them?

You have to understand why the validation part is so powerful.

Autogynephilia is the sexual fetish that makes men fall in love/lust with themselves when they present as female.

It's well documented, well evidenced phenomenon and is the second cohort under the banner transwoman. Gender dysphoria is not necessary, although it can sometimes happen.

The reason why this brand of womanhood does not fit in with the original brand is because it has nothing to do with it.

The arousal relies on seeing women as victims, weak and subordinate. See sissificationf/forced feminisation.

It's a sexual fantasy. The embodiment of 'female', relies on the fantasy.

Google trans widows. It becomes very clear exactly why the fantasy of womanhood does not relate, in any way, to the reality.

Datsun - I agree. In marketing terms its called "positioning" - the understanding of a brand in the minds of a consumer. Positioning is depending on a variety if factors from the communicating brands. IW is not doesn't share the common need. Therefore consumers will recognise the "not like me" factor.

Its akin to when you're on holiday with a tour operator - you bought into the brand values of the TO and expect to holiday with people like you because the values of the TO attract consumers with the same perception of the brands positioning.

We do its all the time - that's why the dog knew that his mistress wasn't a woman, thats why kid's know - we pick up subliminal messages and create map within our minds as to what this new brand relates to. Obviously we as adult humans pick up comms messages too - language / imagery / channel etc toto impact on this positioning.

To reliable or rebrand an exiting brands just reinforces that the brands does not fit the segment. Its happen before this Burberry in the 80's their signature check called Burberry Check which was trademarked and core to their brand was rebranded by consumers outside their targeted segment as "chav check" and it took restricting access to restore the Burberry brand.

you literally need to do nothing to be a woman

just be born one

Being a woman isn't "free"

being a woman is free

it's an accident of birth

Hi Rowantrees - I've read quite a few of your posts and I appreciate your well argued points.

I realise IW has done an about face (not just once so I appreciate she's probably not a good example) and I watched CBB and the following car crash in the media.

I guess my last post was looking more at "woman" as a label for a set of characteristics, values and visual as well as emotional identifiers which have a common need or unifier (Very much like a Brand) rather than woman "like me" vs woman "like trans". So apologies if that didn't come across.

So I wasn't discussing or suggesting woman vs trans women I was interesting in the "othering" that seems to be going on in the "transgender" group (and I refer to the Stonewall Def of transgender) of Transexuals distancing themselves to other segments within the transgender category. IW mentioned it and I've seen more examples. Is this a new development / push back against the conflicting need of the Transgender category?

Your point about transwomen already existing within the category and me not knowing - you're probably right. I probably haven't noticed.

What I am interested in is this small group of people who do want to enter the category of woman and continue to add value and support the EXISTING brand vs those who want to enter and not pay their subs. Being a woman isn't "free", each members add value by supporting the existing members and the history, characteristics of the brand and by improving them for future women to enjoy.

To make the category open to people who "just want to pee" devalues and damages the brand "woman". If thats all you want then by all means use the Ladies but don't use the brand.

Your asking the brand to admit potential members who aren't the values and history of "women" and want to change it - the years of history / struggle and hard won values . Your asking for them to stand with you when your needs don't match / aren't common to the existing category. I pointed these out in my last post. One of the core values within this category is the solidarity you demand. Women do stand, bleed and speak up for members because of the existing commonality.

As I said in my last post - I cannot see the relevancy of the category for trans people. Why enter a segment that has no relevancy for them?

FourFried, I think it's meant to show that BloodyDisgrace is kind and stuff.

What it actually does is suggest that the concerns we have are akin to racism, and even veers into some questionable stuff itself (Why would your compassion for people cover a black person on a bus? How bloody patronising are you?)

" I've got no problem with trans women using women's toilets anymore I'd have a problem with a black person using a bus."

that is a deeply weird statement.

Justine Roberts & India Willoughby interviewed by Julia Hartley-Brewer.

Worth listening to:

The increased risk to women & girls' safety, dignity and privacy with gender self-id is highlighted by the recent case of two girls assaulted in supermarket women's toilets.

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3329936-teen-films-girl-in-toilet

Because people can be compassionate. And that trans people are people too. I've got no problem with trans women using women's toilets anymore I'd have a problem with a black person using a bus.

NeedChoos

India might very likely have gender dysphoria. And be one of the genuine transsexuals we talk of. But India is still a narcissist, misogynist and a bully.

Which is why even her earnest desire to be thought of as female, does not come across as authentic in any way.

The reason why there isn't a single male born person who can effectively convince women that they are indeed a woman, is because being a woman isn't a feeling.

It's not just material reality that can be observed, it's impossible for any transwoman on the planet to effectively describe how they are feeling, if they want to frame it as feeling like a woman.

They will, in your excellently chosen analogy, be talking about a logo, a strapline, a trademark. And you are quite right, it devalues the actual brand.

What they really want to do is trademark womanhood so the actual brand is femininity, not female.

Then they will rebrand us as cis women. Because, of course, we have to exist as we perpetuate the species. But we will be rebranded as bleeders, breeders and feeders. Irrelevant to the new brand of womanhood, transwomen, where bleeding breeding and feeding is taboo, but the trappings of femininity are not.

And the real nail in the coffin is that they can switcheroo at any point to claim they are speaking for both the old brand and the new brand. It's power and control to the nth degree.

(See people like Monro Bergdort saying they will allow women to partake in the women's march, as long as they do not centre their reproductive systems/biology at the same time as pussy hats are deemed exclusionary).

NeedChoos
IW has U-turned from her position this April (back to, I believe, her position previously?):

"I admit – I wasn’t convinced about self ID myself to begin with, but the evidence from around the world is irrefutable. I was categorically wrong, and fell for the hysteria.

Portugal, Ireland, Norway, Columbia, Malta, Belgium, Denmark and Argentina have or are adopting the same legislation – and there have been no spikes is assaults.

Women’s areas will not become dangerous places when the Gender Recognition Act is passed."

But this isn’t a them-and-us argument which pitches trans women against other women. We are women who make up a tiny one percent of the population. The chances are you don’t even know any of us.

All we want to do is use the appropriate bathroom or changing area, and get on with our lives.

Which is where I would ask all women who think of themselves as feminists, or equal rights supporters, to stand alongside trans women at the moment.

There are grandmothers, mothers, sisters and aunts out there who know the truth that their trans relatives are not serial sex offenders, or a threat to society"

www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/04/24/india-willoughby-transphobia-opinion-worried-for-my-life-mumsnet/

Yeps I have wondered this. What is it I have and I am that they want ?

Younger people...

Datun - I think you post really highlights the conflicts within the "transgender" TWAW mantra. Not all want it and the ones that do want the brand "woman" want none of the values and responsibilities with it. Just the Trademark logo, as it were.

Which devalues "woman" as a brand and damages values it stands for.

It's interesting- this "I'm all right,Jack" approach that India W was postulating on LW. She clearly separated herself from Transgender and in to transsexual- is this the snake eating itself? To will transsexual be policing entry to Woman?

She very strongly "othered" the rest of the trans community... she's not the only one doing this, either...

Datun "But for all the cohorts, they are not actually trying to enter the segment that's not relevant to them, they are trying to get that segment changed, so it is."

I would like to know what factors drive trans men and if and how this differs between trans men and women, especially the younger prople.

I am sure some feelings and motives may be the same but think some are different.

Are many young trans men or young dysphoric females thinking about joining a different sex class or abdicating their own? Again there will be a mix of reasons.

*they have the power

How has Stonewall a charity originally about sexuality become an authority on trans?