People apparently support trans

Doggo1

Do you consider Jess Bradley to be one of your trans sisters?

I'm a feminist and I support my trans sisters. I am involved in the LGBTQ community and I don't feel I have to decide between being a trans ally and a feminist.

I am in the 75% and always will be.

A lot of feminists seem to take offence to this rather than accepting my beliefs and try to tell me I can't be a real feminist. My trans sister never tell me I can't be a feminist and an ally to them.

Cassie, you said that the difference between us is that GC people believe biological sex is the only factor, while the transactivists believe that gender and biological sex are separate things.

I think you're labouring under a misapprehension, because that's not the case at all. We both of us, GC people and Transactivists alike, believe that sex and gender are two separate different things.

We GC feminists believe certain rights and safe spaces have been won for women on the basis of their female sex.

Some people have a gender identity, some don't. Some conform to gender stereotypes, some subvert them entirely. GC feminists believe everyone should be able to present themselves to the world however they feel most content. Have at it.

But we do not have rights reserved or safe spaces based on gender. There would be no purpose in that, because sex based rights and protections are all fundamentally based in our female biology and the disadvantages we face because of it.

Hope that clears up some misconceptions.

oh yes they will do, they have their instructions from above...in fact it was quite scary, the way she dismissed me..

Her mate was the same, and she is a school teacher.

It was school teacher on here, bending over backwards to accommodate a transchildren at the expense of girls, that made me see how crucial this is.

Cassie Brighter, in your blog post What Do We Do About Women With A Penis? you pose a question (Trans women are women) with 3 alternative replies. If, as gender critical feminists do, we choose option B - that transwomen are male, your response to that option is:

We will not agree on much. You will probably hate my stories. So honey, let's do each other a favor. Skip my article. Go read your favorite Germaine Greer invective. And let's leave each other be.

You want gender critical feminists to leave you alone. And yet you turn up here on the FWR board. I'm baffled. How come you're not taking your own advice?

T**F is prohibited here, btw.

I must be honest, I was trying to explain my objections to self ID to a younger friend and she just shook her head and laughed at me. Her mate was the same, and she is a school teacher.

I really don’t understand how Transwomen are a type of women, as opposed to being a type of man?

We can’t start reclassifying people on gender instead of sex because of all the variants of gender identity (see my post re: Stonewall above). It’s not going to be possible to offer say, NHS wards or prisons, for each seperate gender.

Plus some of us have no gender at all...

Gender being in somebody's brain.
Trans women are the unfortunate ones whose gender and biological sex is out of alignment.

I don't see why that should cause women to lose sex segregated spaces.

A lot of people consider that trans women ARE indeed a type of women, and therefore when you're defending THEIR right to women's spaces you're defending women's spaces.

And a lot of people don't. Even the ones that do, as you have observed, are expecting a particular kind of trans person.

cassie, you said ^My point is that the transition takes years. At which point you begin to consider accepting a trans woman as someone acceptable to have near you is an individual choice.
(In your case, I'm guessing it's never.)^

What do you mean "someone acceptable to have near you"? Did you actually read my post or did you just assume 'transphobe'?

I'm happy to have transwomen or Transmen near me ffs.

I'm not happy having a transwoman in a space reserved for women in the same way I wouldn't want any other man in that space. I wouldn't invite my husband, father etc in a woman's space because it would make other women uncomfortable.

Bingpot Sun 05-Aug-18 18:11:17
"The title of this isn't great. It's not that we don't 'support' trans people or are anti-trans. It's a little dangerous to frame it that way.

It's about protecting women's rights to single sex spaces and protecting their dignity, safety and privacy."

At the heart of this debate is the notion that biological sex is the one governing factor, vs the notion that gender and biological sex are two separate things.

A lot of people consider that trans women ARE indeed a type of women, and therefore when you're defending THEIR right to women's spaces you're defending women's spaces.

But if your understanding of a trans woman is that she's a man, then of course you'd feel aggrieved at the notion.

I just want to point out that I've never come across a story of a man self-id-ing as a woman for the sake of preying on women. Men who do that - they do it without any such tactic.

Cassie round here we tend to go with the Stonewall definition of transgender-

At which point you begin to consider accepting a trans woman as someone acceptable to have near you is an individual choice.

It's not about not having trans people "near you". It's about respecting women's boundaries around male people in female spaces where women need privacy and dignity.

"Well, I used to be fully in favour when I thought we were just talking about transsexuals; people with gender dysphoria who'd socially, medically and surgically transitioned and looked like women (or as near as they could)."

What do you think people mean nowadays?

It's biological sex that matters as well as the fact that in UK 80% of trans women retain fully intact male genitalia.

It's much more than that. It's a tiny percentage who have had genital surgery. Virtually all have their penis. Allegedly 20% want to have the surgery at some point.

Hi "lurker33" (lol)

"You're implying here that being a woman is to do with the way the person carries themselves and the way they look."

Here's the thing. I never said such a thing. I am in fact saying just the opposite. Gender expression is separate from identity.
My point was as response to an earlier poster, who was articulating not having a problem with trans women "as long as they wear makeup, look like women, etc."
My point is that the transition takes years. At which point you begin to consider accepting a trans woman as someone acceptable to have near you is an individual choice.
(In your case, I'm guessing it's never.)

The thing I would add, is that the general understanding is that trans women are in fact women. (I realize that's not what most people on this board believe.)

Saying this doesn't make it true. It isn't. Munroe Bergdorf at least understands that people are just humouring them. They don't actually believe it and no amount of transactivist censorship, gaslighting or bullying people will make them. Apart from maybe the kids. They're easier to manipulate.

I think how I carry myself largely depends on how much sleep and/or coffee I've had, honestly.

I had short hair for a while in my teens and have never made any effort to get my mannerisms "just so". Nobody had a hard time figuring out that I was a girl, even so.

cassieBrighter you said ^Also, you catch a trans woman early in her transition and she doesn't look very passable (might have short hair still, might not have her mannerisms just right).
You catch her five years down the line and she would look passable probably.
But her essence, feelings, mind, heart have not changed.
Just the way she carries herself and the way she looks to you will have changed.^

You're implying here that being a woman is to do with the way the person carries themselves and the way they look.

To say this, I find extremely insulting. If I don't carry myself or look in a certain way, does that mean I am not a woman?

I can say that I have something in common with every woman in the world that I do NOT share with men, I.e. my biology. I include all women in this. Yes, I exclude all male born people from womanhood, you know, because they are not and never can be women. I do include transmen because, you know, they are adult human females whether they like it or not.

This does not mean that I think transwoman and men do not exist. This does not mean that I think that they shouldn't exist. By all means transfolk, knock yourself out, dress or act as you like as long as you're not adversely affecting anyone else. You're entitled to exactly the same rights as everyone else no matter how you 'present'. Gender, however does not trump sex.

I do not have a gender. I do not conform. I will not be put in a box with a label. I am not CIS. I am not trans. I am a woman.

But her essence, feelings, mind, heart have not changed.

I don't have a womanly essence and all that, CassieBrighter. I have a woman's heart, though, and a woman's kidneys for that matter. I'm a woman because of my sexed female body and the experiences directly connected to that. Had I a cock and balls I'd be male.

You say Trans women are the unfortunate ones whose gender and biological sex is out of alignment.

Sorry, but my gender and biological sex are also out of alignment. I think you'll find this is true of most regular posters here. This is Feminism Chat, FFS.

But then I have very short hair so perhaps I'm wrong about my sex (though the DC I gave birth to might want to argue that point).

You catch her five years down the line and she would look passable probably.

Wishful thinking is a marvelous thing, isn't it?