People apparently support trans

consultation

now this bit

do you believe self-identification should be enough for trans people to obtain a gender recognition certificate?
75% said No, and only 29% said yes.

This is where the discussion is to be had its the bit people actually want to talk about, all the other stuff you keep bringing up detracts from your points around this bit. I think wpuk understand that to make a point you need to focus on one clear question and keep people focused on that. this is the actual question of the conclusion. keeping having this biology discussion on both sides is just a distraction from the question that is being asked at this moment not many people are asking the other ones.

happygolurkey. Exactly. The surveys I've seen seems to suggest that the general public are against the idea that a women is anyone who declares themselves as one. People seem to want at least an element of medical diagnosis.

I'm not invested enough to want to argue with you

You're not capable of a good faith argument with anyone here. I can tell that by your interesting use of "logic" poundshop sophistry

Hi, I'm new here but a long time lurker. I'd like to contribute a point to this discussion, which is the figure that is never quoted from the sky survey.
The results revealed that 84pc do not see themselves as prejudiced against trans people, and vast majority have no objection to peeing next to a trans person. however, what about the result to the question: do you believe self-identification should be enough for trans people to obtain a gender recognition certificate?
75% said No, and only 29% said yes.
that seems to show that the general public's view is in line with the general view on this board - not prejudiced toward trans, however, concerned about the idea that 'anyone saying they are a woman is one.'

😃 AAK

Biologists should definitely employ the "ask organism how it identifies, and if it says it's female then it is" method instead.

but that approach wouldn't work in any scientific settin

And yet in biology labs all over the world it seems to work just fine....

Erm, so now you're excluding anyone infertile from being of either sex, including women who are past the menopause, and people who have survived cancer? And all pre reproductive children, obviously.

RaindropsOnKittens43

As someone who needed a total hysterctomy as medical neccessity following a gyny cancer diagnosis which led to both surgical menopause and of course infertility can I ask you to not appropriate my experiences or those of the many women similarly affected.

In fact if you could stop doing this and encourage others to do the same it would be most appreciated.

The statement 'of the class' does not exclude the groups of individual women as you insinuate. It is though rather appalling, in my opinion, that you and others use this argument and demonstrates a lack of critical thinking, empathy & respect.

Everyone is very angry that I've dared to question a rule system that appears to depend on knowing the answer before you ask the question for a significant set of any mammal you might examine (what sex is this organism? Well, I think it belongs to the class of females, so even though it produces no gametes, I will allocate it there..).
I'm not invested enough to want to argue with you, but that approach wouldn't work in any scientific setting.

None of us are being particularly docile or hesitant - is that just for sex as in shagging or are we about to be told that we have a manly gender identity?

Omg, Reluctant. No. Please. No. The 'docile, patient, hesitant, fragile' business. I'd all but wiped that from my poor brain.

titchy lol

if we get onto shy, fluttering, hesitant lady peen littlbrowndog, I'm bloody out of here.

must have asked about the (non-existent) third gamete a thousand times by now...

It's on the Z chromosome.... often found in unicorns.

I must have asked about the (non-existent) third gamete a thousand times by now...

... answer came there none.

Mammalian sex classes are based on reproductive potential, not fertility.

Jebus - we've wound back at least a year on this thread. Some people need to catch up that biology talk has been completely jettisoned. We witches feminists are identity denialists these days. Do keep up, everyone.

Aw reluctant. Think about the inner essence o& the women

Can you mandate belief?
Can you codify into law the idea that some people can mind over matter themselves out of material reality and into the opposite sex and must be treated accordingly?
It is a belief that no one actually believes.
Will you allow people to drug and mutilate children based on this belief that no one believes?
How will you punish the non believers and heretics?

History teaches us that one of the most self destructive things a government can do is to mandate compliance with a belief system the population does not share.

mmmm titchy

so all being well with their junk, which gametes would a transwoman produce?

Ah its like TRA bingo in here

Mind at the 'infertile women are not women under your definition!' suff comes out, I bugger off as this line of argument is both ridiculous and offensive tbh.

Though I will ask, what definition of 'transwomen' is being spoken of here? To both cassie and raindrops. See, if you are not going by stonewalls definition (which is in some cases anyone who makes no changes to yhemselve, may not even suffer dysphoria, but may like wearing lacy knickers as a bloke or a female wearing trousers...is trans) then you are being transphobic.

I'm still waiting to hear about the extra gametes we had in a thread a while back

don't think the poster on that thread ever came back

i had high hopes for some proper sci fi shit

members of each sex class produce.

Members of the class who produce....Not members who produce. That's why the words 'of the class' are there. FFS.

If you're going to use scientific definitions to support your view/ disprove the alternative view, at least get it correct and understand what they mean.

many, many x-posts!

A post-menopausal woman is a member of the class that produces large non-mobile gametes - ageing does not change a person's sex. A male of any age is not a member of the class that produces large non-mobile gametes, regardless of what artificial hormones they take of what plastic surgery they may have had.

You may want to try a new argument as this one has been comprehensively debunked many, many times before.

geez louise Raindrops do you think I'm a noob?

in mammals we determine sex by looking at the gametes that members of each sex class produce.