People apparently support trans

Doubly dumb.

Exactly. It's basically a reversal.

Also black people as a group have not historically been a threat to white people as a group the way male people as a group have been a threat to female people as a group - quite the opposite, in fact.

Yeah, so that doesn't work, unless you think race segregation is generally OK, but that some black people ought to be allowed to sit with the whites. Sex segregation is done, not through prejudice (as with race segregation), but based on safety, privacy, and dignity.

This. It is a really dumb analogy.

Because people can be compassionate. And that trans people are people too. I've got no problem with trans women using women's toilets anymore I'd have a problem with a black person using a bus.

Yeah, so that doesn't work, unless you think race segregation is generally OK, but that some black people ought to be allowed to sit with the whites. Sex segregation is done, not through prejudice (as with race segregation), but based on safety, privacy, and dignity.
People who proclaim TWAW never say they are against sex-segregation full stop. In fact, they argue that it is necessary because of male violence, etc. But at the same time, they say that some male-bodied people should be allowed to be in the female area, but they can never explain what precisely it is that makes them female (ie the idea that someone with a penis is dangerous but someone with a penis who says they are a woman is magically not). So all in all, a really really dumb analogy.

Because people can be compassionate. And that trans people are people too. I've got no problem with trans women using women's toilets anymore I'd have a problem with a black person using a bus.

Comparing transgenders in the women's loo to Black people on a bus?
Srsly? The buses were not racially segregated the way that toilets and changing rooms are sex segregated. Buses were divided between front and back, not separate buses.
Also too and besides Black women have asked whites to stop doing this over and over and I just want to remind the women here that people who refuse to take no for an answer are not safe to be around.

@donquixotedelamancha thank you, very kind.

As an aside, the sex class thing doesn't of course) guarantee anyone anything!

I spent ages finding a partner (no expectation of sex on tap!), difficult fertility journey, problematic pregnancy and birth (a child who I am truly thankful for), miscarriage, years of difficult fertility treatment and adoption process (another child who I am truly thankful for).

Had my womb totally thrown in the towel before I met dh and before the early menopause that runs in my family, I'd still be female because being part of a sex class is not about necessarily having children etc.

I say that because i know this is a touchy subject and I really do not expect biology to mean the same outcome for people. I have many friends who have fertility issues.

Yeah zutt bitter, desperate and disdainful is never attractive but they don't listen. They also seem blind to all the normal, happy couples all around them that disprove their theories

trans will lose all meaning
Ironic, really

Turph. These men might get laid if they worked on their personality and lose their obsession with conspiracy theories.

India comes across badly. The comment about poor men was spectacularly telling.
Male violence hurts women; trans women; trans men; and other men. Pandering to men's egos is ridiculous but females do it too!

The trans 'movement' has, I think, moved the goal posts and the dysphoric will pay the price. Services will be cut and trans will lose all meaning.

Savy trans people should be fighting this self id nonsense as much as women are.

I don't think women need to add value or pay their dues or anything. Female just is. It's being born human of the sex class that can produce eggs and bear live young. It's noy better or worse than male. it just is. Both males and females suffer from negative expectations. Better for us not to expect anything specific from either sex, but accept we are (as a sex class) different only in those ways we are biologically different.

Bugger me that's a good post. Wouldn't it be nice if everyone could just do this?

Thanks for that Turph.

Back in the mists of time, I had actually read about the details, but I think I have a selective memory.

Even if they think that everyone paired off in the dim and distant past, why do they think they're entitled to that now.

It must be exhausting.

also thank you Italiangreyhound just been reading back through the thread

I missed out "Chad" and "Stacy". The former is the 9/10 man who gets all the women so doesn't need to commit, he's handsome, athletic and "alpha". Some comments about "Chads" verge on the homoerotic..."Stacy" is the attractive, sexually active women who won't sleep with the incel in question, and rants about "Stacys" can be eyewateringly nasty.

India Willoughby will say what ever gets her noticed I have no time for her and she as blocked me twice on twitter for calling her out on stuff she is a poundland caitlyn jenner

I don't think women need to add value or pay their dues or anything. Female just is. It's being born human of the sex class that can produce eggs and bear live young. It's noy better or worse than male. it just is.

Both males and females suffer from negative expectations.

Better for us not to expect anything specific from either sex, but accept we are (as a sex class) different only in those ways we are biologically different. So there is no sense for me that natal females need to do anything special to be female.

Datun incels and MRAs in general have some misconceptions. I don't want to derail but in short they believe that in the past every bloke got himself a wife. Said wife was duty bound to perform domestically and sexually. Now since the pill and "sexual liberation" women willingly put themselves in harems by all chasing after the most attractive men. So the 9/10 men are "drowning in pussy" and the 5,4,3,2,1s are incel and bitter. Less attractive women end up as single mothers or find a "beta provider" to settle down with after "riding the cock carousel". Said "beta" is a "cuck" for taking on a sullied woman and worse if he finds himself a step dad to another man's children.
There are more than a few issues with this. Firstly 1930s man (for example) wasn't just allocated a wife. Secondly people were less mobile (partner choice limited by geography), less well off and less healthy, so the average bloke didn't get the dream girl the incels feel they are entitled to, the mythical 1930s man ended up married to the girl next door. There was no dream girl, the hardworking wife would have looked old before her time due to living a hard life. Not sure how that features in their porn-soaked fantasies. Thirdly his wife may well have died in childbirth. There (obviously) were men in the past who were widowers, who were single and would have preferred to be married, who lived lonely lives, who didn't have the opportunity to meet someone to love. But the incels don't accept this and instead cling to their theories about "hypergamy". Many blame women being able to vote, for the changes. Many believe Islamic countries and social mores to be superior (entirely because of the subjugation of women) but funnily enough none would want to live in one.
Anything I've put in quotation marks can be searched for, they are all commonly understood incel/MRA/MGTOW sayings.

This is very true amongst young incels. I saw a meme that said "can't get a girlfriend? Be the girlfriend".

Unsurprising. The thing that I find so difficult is quite how angry it makes men who don't get sex. The entitlement is what produces the resentment.

Why do so many men feel entitled to sex? It's certainly not women who give them that impression.

What I am interested in is this small group of people who do want to enter the category of woman and continue to add value and support the EXISTING brand vs those who want to enter and not pay their subs.

TS don't add value to women, they change the meaning from one of sex to femininity.

Once we were forced to make that change, the logical step is to allow all feminine males to be women if they wish. Because what is the difference?

I think if there is some sort of fracturing going on in the trans umbrella, it's more to do with TS wanting exclusivity, and not wanting any feminine male to dilute the 'women' brand.

I'm really not feeling this marketing analogy.

We are people not a bespoke check.

We are. But I think it's interesting to look at it from various angles.

Nicola Williams discusses India's comments during an interview with Karen Ingala Smith on
<a class="break-all" href="http://go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=fairplayforwomen.com/thank-india-w-showing-us-women-perceive-transwomen-still-male/" target="_blank">Good Morning Britain

"India dared to tell Karen that her website contains a list of crimes committed by men and that this was is a great demonisation.

“I feel really sorry for guys this year – I think they’ve had it really tough”.

India was referring to this; the list of 138 women killed by their male partners or ex-partners last year. This is the annual list that Karen compiles every year with the details of every death in honour of these women. It is the work that told us for the first time that 2-3 woman are killed every week by intimate partners."

This was so incredibly telling.

Sometimes it is an earnest desire to become one of the gatekeepers to sex. They view women as the cohort who get to decide whether or not men have sex. If they become one of that cohort, they can say yes to sex all the time. They are the decider. I have the power.
This is very true amongst young incels. I saw a meme that said "can't get a girlfriend? Be the girlfriend".

This group is tiny, though

This is what people are having a hard time getting their heads around.

one of the sub groups is starting to want to separate with a key tangible differentiator - gender dysphoria / surgery etc and prove they are more suitable to the taking the label

This group is tiny, though.

I think this whole thing could be better looked at through the prism of creating new market segments. That's why this ideology is an ultra-capitalist one. You can "buy" a more attractive self, as it were.