Can Men Be Feminists?

White people can be allies, and support BAME people.
But they shouldn't be directing BAME activism or explaining to black people how they are getting it wrong.

Its the same for men and feminism.

Indeed.

Men can't be feminists. When men declare themselves to be feminists, they invariably demonstrate exactly why men can't be feminists.

Every woman hearing a man say they are feminist, should ask themselves, 'what is this man trying to get out of this'.

Absolutely.

Every woman hearing a man say they are feminist, should ask themselves, 'what is this man trying to get out of this'.

Usually it is sex. A power grab at fucking feminists literally.

I can just picture your excitement when you saw this thread title, PP.

TheCountryGirl that might be your definition of misogyny but it's not the one the rest of the world goes with I'm afraid.

Misogyny is when women face oppression because they are women. Men DO NOT face oppression because they are men. Ffs what do you not get about that?

Bertrand's list is spot on

And I agree with Bertrand's list.

**

My penis says. My penis says. My penis says. My penis says.

I don't see why they can't. White people can be anti-racists, can't they? I hope so, anyway.

In practice, I don't know many men who call themselves feminists. Maybe I've just been unlucky.

oooh, popcorn.

BertrandRussell

Any panel they are on isn't 50% women

Why? What if their industry isn't 50% female?

Should every professional panel of midwives/nurses be 50% male?

Just let the demonstration of why men can't be feminists continue all by itself

Lol misspelled twice...

Stipulative definition

TheCountryGirl

Presumably your going with the whole 'prejudice + power' definition for misogyny, rather than the more normal, 'prejudice against women' definition.

I have gone through this in plenty of detail when people have tried that one with racism.

For the sake of completeness here it is again:

'Prejudice + power' is a stipulation definition that defines racism/sexism/misogyny/misandry (delete as appropriate) in some very specific cases.

It is not, nor was ever intended to be, the only 'true' definition that supercedes all others.

For example if I were to say 'to love someone is to give your life for them', that is a true statement and a stimulative definition of love that is true in some cases.

It does not then allow me to tell anyone who claims to feel love that they are wrong because my definition is the only true definition of love.

I mean, I don't even have an arts degree and I knew that...

But I find the 'ally' title problematic to say the least.

But you're a bloke, so I don't care what you find problematic within feminist discourse. Your opinion is irrelevant to me with regards to this discussion and any lordly pronouncements made by men on this topic function simply as QEDs. End of.

One thing that’s become increasingly clear to me over the past few years is that a lot of men who call themselves feminist, or generally progressive/liberal/lefty/whatever, don’t think women are oppressed as a class at all. They think women are treated unfairly sometimes as individuals, maybe as a group in other countries, but that’s it. So they don’t have anything to say about feminism as a struggle to end that oppression. They’re perfectly content with saying “I think women should get to vote, therefore I’m a feminist”.

There are many things that men could do today that would go a long way towards rendering the need for feminism obsolete. But they don't do them. I've posted my list before-apologies to anyone who's read it already

1. Take full responsibility for their fare share of domestic work and childcare.
2. Challenge sexist/ misogynist/violent talk and behaviour every time they see it and wherever they see it
3. Stop using prostitutes.
4. Challenge sexist work practices-for example making sure that any panel they are on is 50% women- if necessary refusing to go on it if it isn't.
5. Stop watching porn.
6. Stop buying and playing sexist video games, and films that don't pass the Bedschel test.
7. Watch Nanette weekly to keep their minds focussed.
8. Think about how they parent their boys, and remember that they are the next generation of men.

Men can be "Feminist Allies" (not a term I like, but it suits).

I personally don't think you can actually be a fully paid up member if you haven't experienced the issues first hand.

Male here.
Not sure at all why men would really want to be called 'feminist' or say that to themselves. fwiw I'm happy to get to be a 'feminist-in-action' (and in words when required) and satisfied to be counted as an 'ally', if that's the favoured term.

And I'd look through narrowed eyes at males who wish to claim to be more.

Thanks for this, excellent phrases to use.

LangCleg

But I find the 'ally' title problematic to say the least.

If I support a cause, I support a set of principles, not a set of people, because surely you accept that members of a group can often actively work against a principle they should support, or seek to undermine its goals, either consciously or unconsciously.

If I'm an 'ally' then I have to support them and agree with them based on nothing but their membership of that group.

Whereas if I support the principle instead, I can rightly call them out on talking bollocks.