Can Men Be Feminists?

No aspiration? The approvement of randoms on the internet isn't something to aspire to

LangCleg has no aspiration for men to think she is a reasonable person.

Neither does Babelfish. I dont need male approval, or male validation and I shan’t be poked into forced teaming.

I will have some of AFs pancakes though if she has plum sauce and is in the mood to share ...

LangCleg is supposed to feel chastised

Teehee!

LangCleg is very busy watching the QED in action.

LangCleg has no aspiration for men to think she is a reasonable person.

LangCleg thinks men can't be feminists and doesn't give a single shiny shit what any penis has to say about that.

It really shows that you don't even have to scratch the surface, you just hint that a crust has formed.

And it pours out.

I knew this would happen.

And lo. A man has arrived to tell us how we are doing it wrong. Our definitions are wrong and we are just wrong. Also MENMENMEN WHATABOUTTHEMEN.

Sort of sums it all up really.

This is fucking ace!

PP-feel free to go through it point by point. I'd be delighted to hear your views.

It's all here. Wrapped in one tasty little pancake.

Oh no, now Bertrand is being negged.

Thrilling stuff.

The NHS is not alone in it's tendency to overpromote and fast track men into senior positions

Often before they are actually equipped to do the role

This thread is a variation of Lewis's Law in action.

LangCleg is supposed to feel chastised

TheCountryGirl is supposed to feel stupid and backfooted

Bertrand is supposed to be preening now in the glow of male approbation

Fascinating stuff.

Bertrand, no it is rather ill-considered I'm afraid, without going through it point by point, I think you know it is.

The Bechdel test was another one I nearly jumped on. Come on, you know that's nonsense right?

"You know I think you are a reasonable person, but I also think a lot of your list is ill-considered. "
You don't, you know. You think it will involve men actually doing stuff.

If men are massively disadvantaged and passed over for promotion in nursing then yes, panels should include men. But they aren't. So that's OK.

Bertrand

You know I think you are a reasonable person, but I also think a lot of your list is ill-considered.

The 50% representation point was just the simplest to challenge without having to type a small essay on my phone.

Do you think that professional panels of nurses/midwives should be 50% male? If not then why not and how is that consistent with your previous point?

I lost a big post a minute ago. Saying basically.

Lots of great points from the women in this thread.

My feeling is when feminism was deeply unfashionable and maligned in the backlash (1990s - 2010 ish) some feminists tried to sell it to men by saying it benefits men too ie- you too can be liberated from oppressive gender and benefit from sexually liberated and assertive women, etc, etc.

Really men should support feminism because it is the right thing to do and they are decent people, not because of what might be in it for them

Look at the state we're in. Entitled men thinking wearing frilly knickers, lipstick and a skirt breaks the gender binary instead of doing the 50% cleaning, caring, clerical and catering that would actually make a difference to women.

I think they can be alies but not feminists.

I think men who identify as feminists are like white South Africans who opposed apartheid.

You can see that the system is wrong but you have had a better education, earn more money,live in a better area etc.

If you assault someone from the 'otherside' the police will ask what the other person did to provoke you and assume you are innocent, they will then ask the other person why they were in the area and what did they expect to happen? (OK hopefully this is getting less).

You get to enter clubs, use better facilities and not be questioned. You will ever be routinely abused verbally or physically by the 'other' group. and be expected to accept it.

The underlying principle behind what I want to achieve is the liberation of women from male supremacy. There are plenty of other women who are happy to water down ‘feminism’ to utter vapidity in exchange for getting men to be nice about it, go pester them.

"BertrandRussell

Any panel they are on isn't 50% women

Why? What if their industry isn't 50% female?"
Glad that's the only one of my points you disagree with, PP.Assuming that you agree with and do all the rest.

So far we have:

• trying to turn this into a discussion of misandry (still not a thing, no systemic oppression of men and their rights)

-saying women are 'talking bollocks' for their definition of feminism

• patronising us even without an arts degree (because only silly women have those yeah?) with terms that he can't even spell correctly

-insinuating another (female) poster is childish for 'crayoning over the board' with their comments

What other gifts have you, sir, as we continue to discuss whether men can be feminists?

53rd

But surely you can see that your theories about the 'power systems' involved in racism/sexism are neither universally shared or even accepted?

What your effectively saying is 'if you don't do feminism/anti-racism in exactly the way I want you to, then you are wrong. And I don't want anything to do with you'

Surely focussing on the end result and the underlying principle behind what you are trying to achieve is more important?

I don't accept patriarchy, I don't accept that UK society is systematically racist. You do, on this point we differ but I'm sure we agree on far more points than we disagree on.

TheCountryGirl that might be your definition of misogyny but it's not the one the rest of the world goes with I'm afraid.

Mansplaining misogyny.

Lol.

Naughty ladies, having your own interpretation of misogyny.

Also that you aren't unconsciously racist.

Upstart said it better!

White people can be anti-racists. But I’d say that as a white person, it’s my duty to understand that my good intentions don’t magically make me immune to the power system at play. Therefore, I shouldn’t presume that my opposition to racism entitles me to appoint myself in charge in a movement which is about somebody else’s liberation.

Likewise, men can support feminist goals and feminist actions. But men who say “I’m a feminist too, therefore I get an equal say in what feminism is and what we do” are fundamentally missing the point of feminism.