Can Men Be Feminists?

Having cancer does not make someone underprivileged- but he would certainly now get special consideration, on health grounds, not on grounds of disadvantage.- for university entrance.

As for the guy in the pub- when you challenge the group, what do they say about excluding him?

Hang on- they chanted “you don’t belong in this group-you’re a straight white man” in unison and whoever was runnng the group did nothing to intervene? What happened when you complained to the service provider?

Bing I think she wasn't expecting me to have been in the sector for twenty years and was caught on the back foot.😉

Anyone else having a hard time picturing this?

why does it matter if you have a hard time picturing this?

Claire are you desperate to make a personal attack you deliberately misread? She said she's been working with disadvantaged women FOR TWENTY YEARS, and your response is that isn't good enough because she hasn't been doing it in her spare time too? What's wrong with you?

no, I asked he how much of her spare time she voluntarily gives up, the answer is none

the defence from one or two individuals wouldn't have had any effect, it was the whole pack mantra " you don't belong in this group - you are a straight white male" chanted more or less in unison, more or less every time he tried to join in, that's what drove him out.

Anyone else having a hard time picturing this?🤨

That being said, I find it astounding that no one defended the lad who had been in care,

the defence from one or two individuals wouldn't have had any effect, it was the whole pack mantra " you don't belong in this group - you are a straight white male" chanted more or less in unison, more or less every time he tried to join in, that's what drove him out.

Similar things have happened to other foster sons, and also to boys I teach

Yes they can. It's a belief system which someone can subscribe to if they are male or female. However I'm not sure how many men genuinely are feminists.

I don't see how any of that has got to do with men being feminists. The nice man in the pub...unless you can say what he said and how he said it - hard to judge whether the feminists who drove him out were right or not.

Claire are you desperate to make a personal attack you deliberately misread? She said she's been working with disadvantaged women FOR TWENTY YEARS, and your response is that isn't good enough because she hasn't been doing it in her spare time too? What's wrong with you?

Claire your arguments are becoming increasingly bizarre. Perhaps you should get out of the sun for a bit lovely.

I don't volunteer now at all. I have four children under eight and am a carer for two elderly relatives. I work 40 hours a week. My DH works 70+.

I think it's brilliant that you volunteer - it's fantastic. 😀 More people should. I certainly will when I have the time to do so.

But when you say NAMALT, you ARE dismissing women. Enough men are like that. Too many men are like that.

Claire when someone comes here and doesn't answer questions (it wasn't just Bertrand who asked you for examples) they get mocked. It's happened to all of us. You know this, because you have posted here under a different screenname.

I have answered questions, and I don't have a different screen name

Claire when someone comes here and doesn't answer questions (it wasn't just Bertrand who asked you for examples) they get mocked. It's happened to all of us. You know this, because you have posted here under a different screenname.

The stories you came up with are interesting but not indicative of what you were claiming.

That being said, I find it astounding that no one defended the lad who had been in care, given that so much emphasis is placed on supporting care leavers in my institution, and I would go back to them and read them the riot act.

I didn't say working, I said volunteering, giving up your spare time,from your most, I imagine that it is none,

just a bit you did 20 years ago?

I work with disadvantaged children all day every day, I am a teacher, that is my job, I asked how much of your spare time you voluntarily give up to support victims of violence, your answer is none, but I did once several decades ago

Mmnnnn well let's see, I first started volunteering with disadvantaged women in 1998. Five years later I got a full time job working with disadvantaged women and have done that since. So twenty years now. And I would never EVER dismiss them with NAMALT.

See above post. You demonstrated it very well

nonsense, absolute rubbish, I spend much of my free time volunteering to support victims of violence, I don't dismiss it at all.

How much of your spare time to you spend volunteering to support victims of male violence?

These are just examples, and that man in the pub is just one of many times I have seen similar

Claire- can you give some examples?

I agree that the responses were a bit mocking-but I did ask you for more information and you didn't give it

sorry, I missed your question.

For example, on the floor I teach on, there is one straight white man only, and he is such a nice guy, but the whole floor goes to the pub regularly on a Friday evening, and I've seen him regularly shut down and excluded from conversations, up to the point that he started leaving early, sometimes within a few minutes of such a conversation starting, and now doesn't come in at all.

Just off the top of my head, conversations he has been told he is not allowed to participate in have included ideas to promote STEM subjects to younger girls, and the PSHE curriculum during Pride month.

Another example would be a foster son, a straight white guy, very intelligent, massive gaps in his education, being initially included in a scheme to get disadvantaged young people into university. Being told by other students that he doesn't belong in the group, on the basis of being a "privileged" straight white guy - ok, they don't know he spent much of his early teenage years locked in a cupboard, but the staff never defended him and they at least would have been aware he was a looked after child - This is currently a great sadness to me, as he could have been excitedly awaiting A level results right now, with the right encouragement, but instead opted out of education completely before GCSEs

My brother, similar, being judged as "privileged" whilst battling cancer, could not get a lower university offer as he did not fit any of the "underprivileged" criteria at the time ( this was going back a few decades! but even so, it sticks) anyway, in his case he got into a "lesser" university and is now the best in the world in his field, so he got there in the end, through a harder route.

generally at school, I see some male students with an awful attitude to women, and some girls too ( one of my tutorgroup in all seriousness told me a few months ago that you knew almost everything you needed to know about someone as soon as you knew they were female!!)

obviously that need challenging and challenging every single time.

But I get sad to see young girls throwing accusations around when they are not justified, when a boy has done better than them by doing better than them, for example, and seeing decent caring young teenage boys hurt by being included in anti male rhetoric from staff, or students.

it is very polarising, and unfair, and more likely to do harm than good.

So yes, I do believe that many men are good feminists, it doesn't matter if they want to use that term or not, they are still good feminists, and belittling them, excluding them and accusing them of the crime of being male is sexist.

OK. So saying that men can be feminist allies but not feminists, and laughing at the idea that pubs are typically hostile environments for straight white men - this is somehow morally equivalent to (or more of a social problem than?) endemic male violence and exploitation of women and girls?

Totally agree with everyone who has said no, but that some men absolutely get it, but those same men wouldn’t claim the label.

I think men with daughters often have a better understanding of it. They don’t notice the restraints of the patriarchy until their daughter butts up against one.

My husband came as a package deal with my step (bonus) daughter and he’s the closest to a feminist man I have personally known - it actually surprises both of us at times because he’s definitely not your typical right-on virtue signaller, but whenever I start telling him about something I’ve read in the news or an issue a friend is facing he immediately responds with a feminist interpretation of the issue.

*where did I say I don't challenge men if they abuse women?

Where did I say I defend men regarding their abuse of women.*

See above post. You demonstrated it very well.

So Claire why don't you give a shit about women suffering at the hands of male violence then? When I mentioned it to you, you dismissed it completely, as if these women were worthless. Even though women suffer FAR MORE at the hands of men than vice versa.

You want us to have compassion for men who suffer - fine! Of course we do.

Just don't dismiss women who suffer at men's hands and don't wave away all the millions of men who are abusive with a flick of your hand and NAMALT!

I have not and do not "slate men". Can you give ab example of the way straight while men are treated badly- maybe one of the occasions where you stepped in to intervene?

Some men I know are better feminists than some women I know

Haha, stop. No really, stop.