Can Men Be Feminists?

I am dying to know though: did you consider the use of PatriarchyPersonified to be ironic? Or is it any accurate descriptor? And in either event, why did you then think mansplaining feminism was a good look? Or is performance art?

I'm sitting on my hands here. MUST NOT INDULGE.

Indeed. Just let the demonstration of why men can't be feminists continue all by itself.

Men who are genuinely supportive are happy with the ally label in my experience.

This. The ones who could, just maybe, actually be feminists would never claim the label. And they are vanishingly few in number.

No. You cannot be part of the oppressing group with all the benefits that entails and also be part of the group trying to end the oppression.

As for PP misandry does not exist. There is no system on earth set up to oppress men out of hatred. If people hate men it is on an individual basis because men have been abusive. It is NOTHING like misogynistic structures we see in every country on earth.

Men can support equality and women's rights but, with the best will in the world, they are often oblivious to some of the small issues which stand in the way of women's progress.

Politically, I was always much closer to my darling father than my mother. He believed very strongly in equality but I'm not sure that he would have deemed himself feminist. Similarly, my dh recently tried to initiate a programme for women in his very male dominated sector of a male dominated industry (to the bafflement of a room of blokes: "why would we need to..?"). Yet he realises that he, as a man, needs to tread softly.

I agree with the analogy above about race.

Nor am I saying this absolves men of trying to support feminism. Identity politics which decrees that nothing can be said or done without experience is ridiculous and, if carried through, would mean that no politician would have any duty to empathize or act on behalf of anyone with whom they did not share background or experience (inevitable this would impact the most marginalized)

So yes, men can and should fight for feminism just as we should all fight racism, against poverty and for other things of which we may have no direct experience.

But that means listening and empathizing. All too often men like a certain honorary 'Dr' announce they are feminists (apparently on his Twitter last night) which seems to translate as "shut up pesky females, I know far more about all this than you". Men like him won't listen because, apparently, they know it already.

Yes. Yes I think feminism is just telling men why they are crap. You got me.

Anyway, back at the conversation: I think the main issue I’ve found w/r/t men who consider themselves feminists/supportive of feminism is a dilution of what feminism actually is. A lot of men seem to take it awfully personally that feminism is a political movement, not just a vaguely defined collection of good intentions.

Mansplain

53rdWay by 'explaining feminism to you', I assume you mean 'being involved in the discussion in a ne equal manner', i.e the entire aim of feminism... equality.

Unless you think feminism is just telling men why they are crap?

Which might well be your definition (and some other peoples on this forum) but its not really going to get you very far towards your goals is it?

I think men can be feminists. I’ve never met one who describes themselves as one in real life though (only met a handful of women who describe themselves as feminist though).

I'm sitting on my hands here. MUST NOT INDULGE.

Where would we be without men helpfully explaining feminism to us, eh.

WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice

Defining misogyny as:

Anger, resentment, contempt for women as a group

Is problematic to say the least.

If I defined misandry as:

Anger, resentment, contempt for men as a group

would that be ok or accurate? Bearing in mind I've been told many times in this forum that misandry doesn't exist, by posters who display exactly those type of feelings?

Made sexist jokes/rape jokes or thought they were funny
Used porn
Were happy enough to point out misogyny in other men, but when something was discussed that they thought was ok, became defensive and/or aggressive.

YY.

Yambabe I would say that generally no, men cannot be feminists. This is based on years of activism and work in various fields and meeting men who declared themselves to be feminists who also:

Made sexist jokes/rape jokes or thought they were funny
Used porn
Were happy enough to point out misogyny in other men, but when something was discussed that they thought was ok, became defensive and/or aggressive.

As MrsTP points out, so much of the stuff we believe about the 'other' is ingrained so, in the same way as I wouldn't be able to call myself a black rights activist, men cannot realistically call themselves feminists. I try to be a great ally to people of colour and men can and should try to be good allies to feminism, even when it hurts.

yes of course they can

I think @Bowlofbabelfish has explained how I feel about this. I agree that men like Andy Murray/Graham Linehan are the nearest to a feminist you might find, who say and do things even though they might face a negative response. I'd happily call them feminist allies.

No

Potplant2

Oh thank goodness a man has turned up to explain to us why we’re wrong and Jen can be feminists...

Happy to help.

Who is Jen?

*men can be feminists, obviously. I’d have no problem with a Jen being a feminist, if she was female

Oh thank goodness a man has turned up to explain to us why we’re wrong and Jen can be feminists....

If men started to lead it it would become just another method by which men control women, and if men enter it at all then they will quickly start to lead it because that is the nature of gendered power relations as currently structured.

As I think we are seeing.

Yambabe

You are going to get a pretty biased view on here, one that's not really representative. The MN feminist boards are a haven for some serious radfem ideas, not really representative of mainstream feminism.

Feminism is broadly understood to be the belief that both sexes should have equality. On those terms there is no reason why a man can't be a feminist.

However I do agree with some previous posters that any man who loudly declares himself to be a feminist to anyone who will listen is very likely to be a closet sex pest who can't get close to women in the conventional fashion, so they try and 'slip under the radar' instead.

The 'feminist man turns out to be a rapist' is the new 'family values politician turns out to have a mistress' trope.

I’d love to say yes, and ten years back I think I would have. But now, I think if truly feminist men exist they are rare. I’m trying to think of men in the public eye... perhaps andy Murray and Graham lineman? Both have the same attitude that they don’t preach on behalf of women, they just point out shit behaviour. I think that’s as close as we get to Male feminism.

And I know race analogies are crap, but:

I can try my hardest to not personally be racist, I certainly hope I’m not, but as a white person I imagine I just don’t see or experience the same things as my friends of colour do. Thus I can listen to them, support them and do my best to make the world better, but I can’t expereince on that lived level what they do. That doesn’t mean I don’t think it’s less of an issue, I’m just able to appreciate that I dont have the experience or expertise to pronounce in it.

The best male allies are along those lines. They listen and work with us. But they can never truly experience what we do.

It’s a very interesting question. I’ll be interested to see what others think on it.

No they can’t. And it is very presumptuous of them to declare themselves to be feminists. They can be feminist allies. But, frankly, not many are even that.

As per above, they can be allies (and we welcome them to be so!), but they can’t be feminists.