Danish ban on the burqa comes into effect today

Floral

Fair point. But it's bloody hot.

transplants
Or told nuns they can't wear the habit?

It feels too often like the voices in disucssion over burquas are really interested in saying 'we white westerners know what is best for you'.

It's like when there's threads about girls of 11-12 dressing in suggestive adult clothing and people will claim how great it is and there's nothing inappropriate and if anyone sees anything wrong with a pre teen wear clothing commonly associated with trying to get laid then they are the ones with the problem.

All choices are equal apparnetly, but some are more equal than others so a pre teen dolled up having been socialised in male ideas of female sexuality is obviously being empowered and expressing her femininity but a woman in her 30s who opts to wear a headscarf must be oppressed.

I don't know, TransplantsarePlants, but the issue surely isn't about covering arms and legs, is it? It's about covering the face. Which is peculiarly dehumanising style of dress, and a standard of modesty that goes well beyond what any of us would perceive as conservative dress codes.

If we want to liberate oppressed women, threatening them with a criminal conviction doesn't seem to be a good way of going about it.

Has anyone ever tried to ban ultra-Orthodox Jewish women from wearing thick tights, wigs, knee-length skirts and long-sleeved tops?

Yes I’m really concerned that women will just be forced to stay in the house and become more isolated.

Hasn’t France done something similar and haven’t they arrested/fined women?

Yes, I agree that the basis of the oppressive element here is the male component (as always). I think there are good intentions behind this kind of ban, but it's focused again on women's clothing or behaviour.

I do think those are separate issues from the cross-cultural difficulty of it being unacceptable in the west to cover your face in public, whoever you are.

If the state is going to get involved, they would be better coming up with a way of tackling women being oppressed. Rather than this ban.

This.
Forcing women to stay at home, or refusing them permission to see a male doctor for a smear test is coercion in the context of an abusive relationship, and a right when its in the context of a religion or culture.

What is it about men's behaviour that is so difficult to tackle or change?

I'm not tying myself in knots over this.

In this society we don't cover our faces. If you want to live in this society then don't cover your face. This applies to both men and women.

Simples.

Wearing the veil in public selectively marks them out as those women who are totally compliant to men.

Which is exactly what these men want.

If the state is going to get involved, they would be better coming up with a way of tackling women being oppressed. Rather than this ban.

BonnieF
Wanting to ban religious clothing is intolerant.
Equally, women being forced to wear clothing to cover up is misogynistic.

Why not say 'it's expected that face coverings are not worn when accessing services' and have female staff available? Then look at educating women and communities so they can make an informed choice for themselves.

No knots to be had from this centre leftie.

It’s always fun to watch lefties tie themselves in knots over this issue.

Pro-burqua? Misogynist!

Anti-burqua? Islamopobe!

Great entertainment.

So, would we rather have the state telling us what we can and can't wear or some sexist, misogynistic male cockwomble.

Tough choice - no choice. Screwed either way.

busy
You do realise that the ban won't liberate oppressed women? They'll be told by their fathers and husbands that they can't go out and their world will shrink and they become even more vulnerable.

No family based on sexist principles is going to suddenly go oh covering up is banned. Ok my lovely wife you can go out dressed how you like. Be free!

I don't agree with the ban. These women are controlled enough by the be-penised in their lives. What it does is just force them to stay home

this

if Denmark really cared about these women they'd be helping them to gain enough independence that we can all be sure that they're wearing this garment entirely of their own accord.

Reminds me of those pictures of the french police forcing a woman to remove her clothes [[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/aug/24/french-police-make-woman-remove-burkini-on-nice-beach - a burkini]

I’m also uncomfortable with the state telling people what they can wear

Me too and I dislike bans on the hijab or other religious items of clothing, but we do also have some social norms around presentation that are enforced by the state. You can't walk around in public wearing nothing, for instance.

Other people being able to see and identify your face is another basic social norm in the West. Covering your face in public is such an affront to all the norms we have around social interaction, I think it is reasonable to forbid it.

I agree with the ban.

The more we normalise women having to cover up like this the more women will be forced to do this.

Anyone covering their face in society is a red flag to me. We shouldn't have men walking round in balaclavas either.

Is it inconceivable that people may choose to wear a burqa? Or a niqab? (They aren't the same.)
Inconceivable to many, including me, but I don't believe anyone should be told they can't. That smacks of condescension and massive assumptions 'oh these poor women, all oppressed'. A better approach would be to allow and facilitate these women to speak for themselves.

I can understand saying faces need to be uncovered when you access some services but not banning Islamic dress.
I have reservations about bans for a couple of reasons:

1. Some women do choose to express their religion that way and who am I to tell them otherwise?
2. The women who are oppressed into being fully covered won't suddenly start being uncovered. They will become prisoners in their homes and small communities, not access services and their access to life beyond patriarchal oppression becomes limited. This places these women in a much more vulnerable position where they are more at risk.

I don't agree with this, some of these women will have been socialised to only feel comfortable wearing it, and in that situation its similar to telling us we have to wear shorts/crop tops even if its out of our cultural comfort zone.
I think a better way would be to try and put an age limit on it, so that young girls aren't being socialised into wearing them, but the women who already are and may feel they want to continue have a choice.

How will they police it? Surely short of arresting someone for wearing it they can't enforce it and I hope they wouldn't be arresting women for following something that may be being imposed on them by family members etc.