Danish ban on the burqa comes into effect today

It should be possible to discuss issues without the kind of sneering, dismissive post on the first page. No one is tying themselves in knots. It's a discussion, there is more than one POV to consider.

Covering your face in public is such an affront to all the norms we have around social interaction, I think it is reasonable to forbid it.

I agree with this. I also think that the burqa dehumanises women to the point where they barely interact with others at all, and this is inacceptable. We cannot let women be forced into oblivion, whether for religious or cultural reasons is irrelevant. Seeing as it is true that these women will end up segregated in their homes, not allowed to go outside, the the ban needs to be just one of many approaches to establish equality in these Muslim families.

@FormerlyPickingOakum, thanks for your post, it makes interesting reading, and isn't something that I was aware of.

Tbh, I'm not sure how I feel about this, as I can see that it may have negative implications for these women.

I do believe that if you decide to live in a particular country then you should try to adopt/live by their rules and be respectful of their societal norms and learn their language.
Whether that's a Muslim country, where you can't then drink alcohol, or show affection/kiss in public, etc, or in a more western country, is irrelevant.

I don't think anyone should be allowed to keep their face covered in public, and that goes for men and women.
If you can't be identified, I think that poses a potential problem in various scenarios.

Also, generally, we use people's facial expressions to guide us when we're interacting with them and this is impossible when their face is covered.

Well yes, I think it's a bit too easy to see a single measure enacted and that's as far as it goes.

I totally agree that not everyone behind this kind of law with have altruistic motives, but it is a single plank that could be added to by those minded to actually assist women who would be in more difficulties with a ban in place.

We are women, well able to do more than one thing at once.

It seems reasonable to me as it isn't a cultural norm in the Western world and does make people very uncomfortable - this may seem unfair but when westerners are in other countries we are expected to follow their laws and norms by covering up, not drinking etc. If it isn't banned then perhaps the coercion some women no doubt face will never change. We need to get more information to those women that they can leave abusive husbands and families and not being allowed out is abusive in Europe.

Glad this is so amusing to you. This is the removal of women's ability to go outdoors you're chuckling over. Still, as long are you're entertained.

I think you have this the wrong way round, its not the fault of the state that is preventing these women from going outdoors, rather its the oppressive cultural practices of a religion clinging on to misogynist 7th century dogma.

Yes a small number of women will have to stay at home if the burka is banned, but it benefits the rest of society so we have to do what’s best for the majority. If we normalise burka wearing it only makes it more likely that women will be forced to wear it.

Personally I feel uncomfortable and threatened when someone’s face is covered. Whether it’s a balaclava, a burka or some sort of mask. It’s a security risk, people’s faces need to be identifiable by others and on security cameras. Anything could be concealed under a burka. And it marks someone out as a person who doesn’t wish to integrate into our society.

There’s also the issue of communication difficulties. It’s hard to communicate when someone’s face is covered, especially if you’re a lip reader. If the wearer is in a job role which requires communication then everyone’s lives are made more difficult. There was a teacher at my brother’s college who wore a burka and the students struggled to communicate and connect with that person. And obviously it’s illegal for employers to refuse to employ someone because they wear a burka. The only way to keep the burka out of the workplace is to ban it completely.

misleading headline
no objection to banning the niqab.

Lighthouse, I was under the impression it was the face veil in view, yes. If that's incorrect, I will revise my opinion.

I do agree with Formerly's post - the niqab is a weighted, political item too. I have known some Muslim women to wear it with a very definite undertone of spiritual superiority over and above both other hijab wearing women, and uncovered women in general.

But, tbh, I think that's yet another issue and probably not directly related to whether it serves any useful purpose to ban it.

If an extreme sect said that its women were only allowed out in public in handcuffs and chained to a male, would you honestly say “Oh, we’d better let them - if we ban the chains, the women will be stuck at home”?
Because that seems to be your argument with allowing the burka.

There are social conventions around covering the face that I think have to be accepted by everyone. That being said, banning clothing in the full knowledge that it will mean that women will have less access to public spaces and education suggests that this was not done for those women's sake, but, as Dixie suggests, to placate populist elements in the country.

sorry
I'm not clear

is it the niqab - only eyes showing - that's being banned in public?

I see this from a very different perspective. I think the presence of the niqab in public space in non-majority Muslim countries and, indeed, some majority Muslim countries breeds factional distrust between communities that has huge political implications.

The reality of the niqab is that it is a religio-political statement. You cannot get away from this, whether it is an enforced dress code or chosen. In fact, in places where it is chosen, and not mandated, the tension it creates is significant.

In Lebanon, for example, it is seen as a sign of Sunni radicalism, sponsored by Gulf states. The attitude to it in Beirut is one of suspicion and malevolence. In Turkey, it is seen as the mark of the invasion of theocratic conservatism from the hinterland and a direct challenge to the legacy of Ataturk.

My perspective is that young Muslim women who choose to wear the niqab in the West do not fully realise what they are doing. They think it is a question of religious repression and freedom to practice their religion; they do not realise how the niqab is seen by others as a mark of adherence to a particular theocratic political system and as an unwillingness to integrate.

And these two issues have a huge impact on how Western society views its unspoken contracts and how western societies work. For one, we are just not set up to deal with non-facial recognition.

I personally dislike the ban, but I think it is a crying shame it had to come into effect in the first place as it suggests there is a profound misunderstanding on the part of some migrants to western countries as to how they will best succeed in their new homes.

I don't agree with the hijab or burqa etc. but totally disagree that banning is the way to go. Something more insidious is happening here to do with fundamentalism (and I think that much of what we hear from the left recently is fundamentalism) and I think this should be our main target. In the 80s I hardly heard any 'pro-modesty' voices. Now, they are the loudest.

I think there are good intentions behind this kind of ban

Not in Denmark, there aren't. Dogwhistling to placate Dansk Folkeparti and its fans.

It’s always fun to watch lefties tie themselves in knots over this issue.

Glad this is so amusing to you. This is the removal of women's ability to go outdoors you're chuckling over. Still, as long are you're entertained.

... sorry, married women (and women marry very early) wear a sheitel

Transplants, yup - as a conservative Christian, I dressed in a very similar manner (without the wig, I wore various styles of headcoverings instead), and it's not always especially comfortable in hot weather. But I definitely dressed like that of my own free will, albeit heavily influenced by a sense of disapproval from others in the community if I didn't.

I do think it's the face issue specifically that makes me err on the side of agreement with the ban on this story, though. I don't remotely agree with further restrictions on dress - the example upthread of forcing a woman to disrobe on a French beach was particularly unacceptable.

It's more extreme than that. Girls from puberty onwards have to wear thick tights and cover their hair. Women have to wear a sheitel.

I know what this represents but it's not unique to the Muslim community, and nor do I think that criminalising women is the answer

The problem is not the burqa.