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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Surprise! The Masons now welcome Transwomen but not women

110 replies

Indierockandroll · 01/08/2018 07:53

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6013141/Freemasons-break-tradition-allow-women-join-brotherhood-born-male.html

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R0wantrees · 01/08/2018 10:16

but if a man who is a Freemason already transitions to female then he isn't hoofed out

Yes this is very interesting.

Not just that the Fremasons (unlike the GirlGuides) wouldn't encourage a trans woman to leave a single sex (is it gender now now like the Guides?) organisation, but that perhaps some trans women would choose to remain in this long-standing men-only organisation.

REOLay · 01/08/2018 10:10

The times article seems to say that this is them accommodating the EA in their terms, rather than actually welcoming in trans women. So they can't join as a transwoman, but if a man who is a Freemason already transitions to female then he isn't hoofed out, because that would break the law under the EA. I think!

DrinkFeckArseGirls · 01/08/2018 10:01

Obviously being mis-gendered is only violence when women do it. When men mis-gender it’s OK, you know.

Kyanite · 01/08/2018 09:59

So when they have to bare their chest to prove that they are not a women, and they've had implants, what are they going to do?!

Kyanite · 01/08/2018 09:56

Wow...this is incredible! Men really do look after their own.

How are transwomen going to handle being called "brother"?

Talk about pick-n-mix your sex.

Ereshkigal · 01/08/2018 09:54

So, HideandGo is encouraging us to eagerly anticipate the imminent high profile campaign led by transwomen to use their privilege to open up opportunities for women.

Oh yes!

NothingOnTellyAgain · 01/08/2018 09:48

From article posted earlier

"Vera Baird, who as Labour’s solicitor general was involved in drafting the legislation, says: “We obviously looked with bared teeth at the prospect of getting rid of them [all-male gentlemen’s clubs].” However, very quickly they saw that this could not be done without also forcing a parallel ban of women’s swimming clubs or gay choirs."

Interestingly, the woman's swimming clubs and the gay choirs are/ soon will be, no more. The "gentlemens" clubs remain.

Indierockandroll · 01/08/2018 09:45

Telegraph article

Trans activist defends being a Freemason amid hypocrisy claims

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/08/01/freemasons-allow-women-members-first-time-joined-men/

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FloralBunting · 01/08/2018 09:37

What HideandGo is saying is that transwomen in this instance are women's rights pioneers, breaking through that ceiling of power which they could never have got through before. (Well, you know, except for the fact that they have, but we'll overlook that...)

So, HideandGo is encouraging us to eagerly anticipate the imminent high profile campaign led by transwomen to use their privilege to open up opportunities for women.

Needmoresleep · 01/08/2018 09:35

The key point here is that you need to be invited. I suspect the old boys wont be particularly welcoming to "new boys", surgery or not.

DrinkFeckArseGirls · 01/08/2018 09:32

I think that’s good - shows transwomen are men.

R0wantrees · 01/08/2018 09:28

I don't think they are permitted to check to see is someone has had surgery.

This is the point that I have heard most priminant TRAs make during interviews eg Jane Fae, Munroe Bergdorf, Paris Lees etc etc

I was just thinking that someone really should ask Stephen Whittle about this Freemasons policy.

He may also be able to unpick the apparent contradictory advice and policies of the Girl Guides and the Freemasons.

R0wantrees · 01/08/2018 09:24

I wonder if Dan Brown has started writing / got his researching teams mobilised yet?

UpstartCrow · 01/08/2018 09:19

I don't think they are permitted to check to see is someone has had surgery.

CanineEnigma · 01/08/2018 09:18

Transmen must have had reassignment surgery. Well yeah, but biological sex, "adult human male/female" etc.

I was under the impression that part of the protection for gender reassignment under the EA is that you're not supposed to ask for proof of the gender reassignment? Why are the Freemasons allowed to question the motives of transmen but women aren't allowed to do the same to transwomen?

Needmoresleep · 01/08/2018 09:09

This will not help.

The number of women going through surgical gender re-asignment and who want to, and are invited to, become Masons must be vanishingly small.

But the Masons are allowed to show how modern and liberal they are by allowing natal-men who identify as women to remain masons. As long as they are not so precious as to object to being called "brother".

Ergo it is perfectly ok, as the current survey promoted by Edward Lord suggests (top prize for the most biased and leading public survey ever) that it is fine for City of London primary school girls to have to share public toilets (say in the Barbican Centre), swimming changing rooms etc with men identifying as women, formal gender reassignment or not.

Indierockandroll · 01/08/2018 09:01

Yes, why stick to just one designated lodge when you can also infiltrate the women's space?

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R0wantrees · 01/08/2018 08:59

Open to all, unless you're a woman who doesn't claim to be a man.

Not claim, this is not like AWS, Jo Cox Women's Leadership program etc.

Transmen must have had reassignment surgery.

No #ManFridaying here.

Should Philip / Pips Bunce wish to join (or continue membership as a Freemason) no problem though now I'm curious to know if Pips Bunce could also attend one of the two (?) women's lodges as well as the male-only lodge.
*hypothetically of course

Indierockandroll · 01/08/2018 08:58

R0wan At the Turf Club

I'm already a member according to Twitter Grin

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Alicethroughtheblackmirror · 01/08/2018 08:57

Top prize for spectacular point missing goes to Hideandgo!

Transwomen are demonstrably not real women or they couldn't join the Masons. They are allowed because their biological male sex permits them, in law, access to single sex male spaces.

We are commenting on the hypocrisy, we are not desperate to join a club that involves standing on one leg wearing an apron and a pair of gloves with a sword pointed at us. I get enough of that from my 8 year old when I'm cooking and he attacks me with a light sabre.

Interesting isn't it, that these men who identify into oppression, still want to maintain privilege? Meanwhile very young and confused girls are booted out of the guides to make way for boys in skirts who may still grow up to be Masons.

BigGreenOlives · 01/08/2018 08:56

TWAW unless they’d rather be men. I wonder whether IW would go to the Garrick?

Indierockandroll · 01/08/2018 08:55

There is...
Dilemma

Twitter has done this!

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Indierockandroll · 01/08/2018 08:54

Call me cyncical, but guessing Teddy boy Lord wants to keep all his male privilege by remaining in the old boys' Masons (because he knows he's a man) and has pushed for new rules to justify his 'dilema'

If he believes TWAW and their is a female lodge why isn't he demanding they budge up as he does with London loos?

I would be interested to hear from the female masons.

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R0wantrees · 01/08/2018 08:52

Seems there are a lot of exceptions to the laws and they all benefit one group of biology specimens. I didn't know this. So refuges and birth centres etc where wlmen are vulnerable are not specifically excluded in law but places where men have power, money and prstige as well as play silly games are all protected.

2015 Guardian Article by Amelia Gentleman
'Time, gentlemen: when will the last all-male clubs admit women?'

www.theguardian.com/news/2015/apr/30/time-gentlemen-when-will-last-all-male-clubs-admit-women
(extracts)
"Just before one o’clock on a Tuesday lunchtime last summer, about 30 men and three women were mingling at the bar of the Garrick Club in London’s theatre district. The broadcaster Jeremy Paxman was leaning back on a low sofa, chatting with a young man (in this context, young means under 50). Michael Gove, the Conservative chief whip, was surrounded by a small cluster of men. After a while, Paxman stood up to say hello to Gove; they talked for a moment, laughing. Shortly after, everyone – among them a former warden of Wadham College, Oxford, and a senior adviser to the government on privatisation – made their way out of the bar for lunch....

A few remain unrepentant about their men-only status. With the exception of the Queen, women are never allowed past the front door of White’s, London’s most aristocratic club. David Cameron’s father was chairman here, but Cameron decided to resign when he became leader of the Conservative party. (His stated view 18 months ago on all-male clubs was that they “look more to the past than they do to the future”.)

When I called Pratt’s Club to ask whether women were admitted, the friendly steward (a woman) explained that they were not, with a logic that wasn’t entirely easy to follow: “They still don’t allow women in because it is a supper club; we only open at seven at night. Only at private lunches – women are allowed then – as we do the lunches on a different floor.” She did not explain why seven is too late for women to venture out, or if there is a reason why women must have lunch on a different floor. At the Turf Club, the person who answered the phone would not confirm whether or not women are admitted (they aren’t), and promptly hung up.

Still, the question of reform does surface from time to time. In 2012, at the annual general meeting of the Travellers Club, members debated a modest proposal to allow “lady heads of some diplomatic missions in London to be accorded honorary membership for the duration of their tenure”. International diplomats and ambassadors use the club’s facilities, occasioning some members’ embarrassment that female ambassadors from around the world are not able to join along with their junior male colleagues. The motion was, however, firmly rejected." (continues)

When the last Labour government drafted the 2010 Equality Act, there was some discussion of how the legislation could be used to make these clubs illegal, but this proved impossible. The legislation settled on banning clubs from excluding people on the basis of colour, but allowed them to continue rejecting women. Vera Baird, who as Labour’s solicitor general was involved in drafting the legislation, says: “We obviously looked with bared teeth at the prospect of getting rid of them [all-male gentlemen’s clubs].” However, very quickly they saw that this could not be done without also forcing a parallel ban of women’s swimming clubs or gay choirs.

Politically it was a disappointment. “Obviously you hope that an equality act is going to be able to root out inequality. As long as men are still the power brokers, having exclusive clubs just for them is going to boost that position again and again; if you allow men to recruit to their own private clubs they can continue to share that power amongst themselves, or not to share it.”

The appearance of new equalities legislation did make it illegal for the Garrick to make some areas of the club off limits to women. It is now illegal for the club to dictate that seats at the central table are just for men. Members were told about the impact of the legislation, but advised (according to a reformist member who asked not to be named) that “‘members may take women there, but the expectation is that they would feel very out of place and therefore we would advise not to bring them’. It worked – you rarely see a woman at that table."

Amelia Gentleman is the award-winning journalist who did a great deal of investigation into the Windrush scandals (also married to Jo Johnson)

Indierockandroll · 01/08/2018 08:50

www.ugle.org.uk/about-freemasonry/frequently-asked-questions

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