Michigan court concludes that trans women are NOT women

I mentioned male toilet attendants to show that service providers think it is important that women know they will find males in their spaces int hat situation. Sorry - it's late. Can't articulate well.

I didn't mean put signs up - I meant making it clear the changing areas are now mixed-sex/unisex in their contract with gym users, if they are not using the exemptions in the Equality Act. It is false marketing to call a changing room single sex if it is not.

I disagree. Don't do this. It provides a 'get out' clause for service providers. It suggests that men in women's spaces is OK as long as there is a notice.

It is never OK, in my view.

"If they don't, they ought to be making it explicitly clear to all their customers that they could encounter a person of the opposite sex in their changing room. Just like signs are put on the doors of toilets to let females know a male attendant is currently cleaning in there. "

By male members do you mean members of the gym who are male, or mens willys?

In other words, the court agreed with Cormier’s perspective that transgender women are not women and that she never should have been expected to understand that a locker room for women would include transgender women. By not disclosing that it was taking the opposite position — respecting transgender people according to their gender identity — Planet Fitness was “failing to reveal a material fact” in an attempt to “mislead or deceive the consumer,” as the relevant Michigan law reads.

This is the crux of it for businesses. If they are going to have policies that make intimate spaces mixed sex then they need to be very clear to their customers this is the case.

I agree that this is an action that everyone can take right now. Write to your gym and ask if they use the permitted exemptions in the Equality Act to retain sex-segregated spaces. If they don't, they ought to be making it explicitly clear to all their customers that they could encounter a person of the opposite sex in their changing room. Just like signs are put on the doors of toilets to let females know a male attendant is currently cleaning in there.

I support all businesses having male, female and unisex facilities. Not only does it offer a solution for transgender people, it offers a space for fathers to accompany daughters, and mothers to accompany sons, or somewhere to use with an opposite sex carer or an extra toilet to use when the ladies has the inevitable queue and someone is too desperate to wait.

Gyms in the USA will also be awake to the possibility of being sued by women, irate (etc) at finding male members in the women's changing rooms.

I’ve asked a few times what the legal implications would be in the following situation:

*Gym makes changing unisex without explicit knowledge and consent of customer
*Man assaults woman in previously female only space

What recourse would the customer have? Previously she had a presumption of safety in there, now due to the actions of the gym she hasn’t.

Are the gym liable for damages?

Do we still have unisex these days?

I think this is great. Fine if you include transwomen in changing rooms for women, but just say clearly changing rooms are unisex. Then I can make an informed choice.

When will organisations, government and the general public realise the debate is about informed consent and boundaries?

I always call them out online: so you mean unisex? And has the proper risk assesment into consequences for all parties been done? Always always deadly silence.

No more Sheilas Wheels?

NB the cheaper car insurance issue is not relevant to the UK as this was determined as discrimination so cheaper rates are no longer offered to women.

The only caveat I'd give to this case is that the gym in question had an 'unwritten policy' of welcoming men who self ID as women into their women's changing room. I suspect that if they had had some 'small print' to fall back on, however hidden they might well have been fine.

Hooray!

Omg - so men could get cheaper car insurance why saying they are women. Now that is going to irk the insurance companies and the general public when everyones premiums go up to account for a rise in bad female drivers

Maybe we need to start writing to all gyms to compel them to state whether they have mixed sex changing rooms or not

I didn't assign my children at birth. Nor did the midwife attending. Nor did their father.

Their sex was observed.

I have to say well done that woman!

xx to all you lovely women

xy to all you lovely men

As someone with ties to Michigan, I very much hope she (and common sense) prevails!

Nice NC

It would all be so much clearer if rooms were labelled Penis and No Penis

I spotted some toilets in a bus station in Spain marked XX and XY. I wondered whether that was anything to do with the trans debate.

It's written by Zack Ford. Def not GC.

Is this an honest-to-God example of "the basic level of practical knowledge and judgment that we all need to help us live in a reasonable and safe way?" So common sense DOES exist!

It annoyed the writer that the court persisted in using the phrase "men who self identified as women" and did not mention transgender once.

On the other hand it pleased me very much.

Meanwhile, over the border in Canada, a man has legally registered as female (with a letter from his doctor as supporting evidence) solely to save $1100 on his car insurance (he says this outright).

I'm beginning to think that they are just bonkers in Canada.

I prefer “men who self ID as women”, tbh. Does exactly what it says on the tin.