Saying no to men

I think the most important thing is to just pay attention. It is surprising what sorts of thing men will tell you about themselves if you just listen, nod and smile.
While I am very opinionated, I tend to not argue with men I am on a first date with. Just nod, smile and ask questions.

Most men I went on dates with were of the type that tried very hard to pretend to be the kind of man they thought a woman would be attracted to. I noticed because I am not an average women, so a man claiming to just love kittens and puppies and romantic dinners ... well.
If I had talked more, they might have changed their pretend personality to suit me, but I wouldn't have known who they really are.

There are of course those who openly disregard your opinions, comfort and boundaries, but those are much easier to spot, I think.

If you are aware that you need to screen men you date, that you need to be careful, that's half the battle.

I dislike using specific tests, as those will be spread on the internet and everyone will know about them, eventually.

Just pay attention.

I came out of an abusive relationship. When I was next interested in a bloke I went out of my way to only present myself and be as I am. For example, first date I wore my favourite outfit (wide jeans, trainers, etc) and did not dress for him.

We’re now married and he says, with respect, that when we got together he felt I was really checking him out and making sure he wasn’t like my dad (or the previous guy). He has no problems with me having done that. To him it makes total sense and he felt no slight that I did it to him. He’s not a brittle man. Brittle men are dangerous.

I wish I had trusted my gut feeling more when I was younger, but I got there.
A salesman tested me out once by standing next to me while I was sitting and told he was testing out boundaries, which was unusual and enlightening.

Goldagainstthesoldier that's grim. I hope she gets out ok.

My friend's husband is a wheedler, he set my radar dinging the first time I met him.

He is everso hospitable and charming but would never take my no for an answer when he offered me drinks. Would then sit next to me, top up my drink when I wasn't looking, berate me for not drinking, tell me I was insulting him by not drinking my wine.

It took a couple of times of going out with them and being physically ill through drink to realise what he was doing.

After I realised I never sat near him again on nights out. About a year later my friend confided he rapes her every night and has also beaten her in front of the DC.

There is something very sinister beneath his superficial charm.

It's also about what you don't do. Don't fill in awkward silences. If the man you're talking to is socially inept fine, it's not your job to make him feel better. I know that's controversial, and it's not meant as anti anyone not neurotypical or whatever, but just don't smooth men's social interactions for them. Make them make the effort.
Personally I don't ever make tea at work unless it's only women in the office. I hadn't noticed that the only times I made it were for women, I had been intentionally avoiding doing it because I feel that men pigeon hole you if you're the type to make tea for everyone. You become a mumsy, caretaker type no matter what your job role is in relation to theirs. So I don't do it. I have the kind of job where I don't spend much time in the office which makes it easier to avoid.
I don't laugh at jokes that aren't funny out of politeness.
I don't pretend to be interested in uninteresting things.
If a woman gets talked over in group discussions I call out the bloke who did it and get her to finish what she was saying.
If a bloke is being creepy and inappropriate I will tell him so, in front of other men if possible.
I can do all this because I'm a butch dyke and my sexual value to men is about zero. I don't care if they think I'm a ball breaker. Funnily enough most men don't hate me,I have many male friends. They generally don't laugh at unfunny jokes or pretend to be interested in a boring story either (perhaps if it's the boss?) The ones that do hate me, really detest me and would probably wish harm on me. I find they're the least well-adjusted ones, and probably the biggest risk.
All this is probably irrelevant to the thread, I'm not gloating (is life easier or harder if you're openly gay? Who knows) but I find it both fascinating and depressing how deep seated the need to please and to be polite is in most women, to their own detriment.

*him not someone

I practise a lot more than I used to. And without the accompanying, almost obligatory, "sorry".

It's ok to say, "no" to men as long as you acknowledge that doing so is a failing on your part. You might be forgiven for that.

It's rarely welcomed and, when it's relayed to other men, you discover that they didn't realise you were, "that sort of woman" or "like that".

A man unfriended and blocked me on Facebook this week. Why? Because I politely disagreed with someone and when he tried to tell me I was wrong, I elaborated to explain why I wasn't. Men just don't like it.

Ereshkigal
Thanks that clip was really thought provoking, should be essential viewing for all teens/young women.

I've always been fascinated with true crime stories/movies/(now) podcasts, some people think that's weird but to be honest I've found it a help to educate me to identify behaviour that could put me in danger. It's helped me observe sociopathic behaviour and call it out if I feel it is endangering or adversely affecting others. I'm not qualified in psychology (have done some entry level study) so I'm reluctant to "point it out" but the two times I have were proven correct.

What I most take away from that clip is how easily manipulated women and girls are. I've fortunately avoided (have shared before in a previous comment) a paedophile at 10. My politeness put me in that situation. Funnily enough the fact I was raised in poverty (lower social class) is what helped me to step up against creepers, told a guy dating my mum, who said how pretty I was and asked me to sit on his knee (I was 13) to "fuck off perve". Not saying poverty/working class are not polite, I was endlessly having manners drilled into me. God forbid if a woman caused a scene, mortifying. That life, however, gives you a certain amount of street smarts, instincts, call it what you will. It's like for women/girls female intuition on speed.

I'm not really sure how I would describe my life now? Almost upper middle class maybe? In the UK it appears that this is judged on education level attained, maybe parents careers? Apologies if I'm wrong it's just my observations from online commentary.

Regardless imo all girls/young women should be taught to FUCK POLITENESS and trust their instincts above all else.

Necromancing this thread because someone linked it and I think it is an important one.

Always screen men (really anyone, but you know...) for boundary-pushing behaviour and general disrespectfulness of others. If he is rude to the restaurant server, he'll be rude to you once he's not on his best "early relationship" behaviour. And if you say no to something unimportant and he freaks out, imagine how he will react to something that actually matters, like money or breaking up.

The book recommendations on this thread are great!

And the book that set me free: Lundy Bancroft and Why does he do that? Inside the minds of controlling men. I know a lot of women on mn have read this too. A life changing book that also described my father to me.

Such good advice, which I wish I'd followed, but I promise myself I shall in future!

I do though, look back and shake my head at the not so subtle clues I missed about my ex-husband: two I remember within weeks of having met him. First he asks me to call a taxi on my phone after we've been out for the night, but I say his surname (an unusual one), and they say they don't take anyone with that name. Second, this woman in a pub asks me if I'm his new girlfriend, and I say yes, she says "You poor cow". Both had me indignant rather than running for the hills, fool that I was.

... this is of course the flip side of what this thread's about, but I thought I'd mention it, since so many of us find it hard to be assertive in the first place. sorry for derail

A book I have found useful in the past, for developing my own assertiveness is:

A Woman In your Own Right: Assertiveness and You

By Anne Dickson

Beware the favor shark and shun the frumious team we d00dz.
People who refuse to take no for an answer are not safe to be around, and always remember to never ever ever set yourself on fire to keep someone else warm.

Thanks for that link Ereshkigal

This is really good, little known feminist analysis, and quite chilling. It's audio- only about 10 mins long. It explores as an example why Ted Bundy was so successful in kidnapping, raping and killing young women through a feminist lens. Like the Gift of Fear but she notes that in the Gift of Fear most of the stories where someone escaped unscathed because they trusted their gut were men while the ones who knew something was wrong, didn't act on it and got hurt were women.

m.youtube.com/watch?a=&feature=youtu.be&v=D468U_skw1A

The Gift of Fear by Gavin de Becker has loads of useful info including;

• How to use a compliance test on a potential predator
• How to spot when a predator is using compliance tests on you
• How to spot Pre Incident Indicators (PINS)

the-eye.eu/public/Books/Radical%20Feminist%20Literature/Gavin%20de%20Becker/The%20Gift%20of%20Fear%20%28123%29/The%20Gift%20of%20Fear%20-%20Gavin%20de%20Becker.pdf

Also, Predators by Anna Salter.
Learn how predators operate and how to use safeguarding.

I saw this on another thread, I think it's an idea which deserves on of its own. I must remember to pass this advice on to my DD.

Actually I wonder if it's such a useful idea that it should have an AIBU thread.

Oh, and sorry if this is already a thread. I looked but couldn't find one

It's not just explosive behaviour you need to watch for - keep an eye on wheedling, whiny or blackmailing behaviour too.

Yes, exactly.

Straightforward acceptance of your trivial no = man is likely to be ok

Temper tantrum at your trivial no = avoid man at all costs

Wheedle at your trivial no = try a few more nos and if the same thing always happens, avoid man going forward

Well when I say no to my DH (when he is being a bit unreasonable or cheeky) he immediately looks a bit cheesy and the offers to do for me the thing that he had just asked me to do. (things like asking me to make some tea or something else equally trivial). He's a bit of a chancer sometimes.

I just posted this on another thread but it applies here too -

I recently saw a woman say no to a man (actually she said wait 2 minutes). He started shouting at her and calling her a fucking bitch. 10 mins later he was nice as pie to me and some other women (not realising we had seen him with the first woman). Because I've been v fortunate I've never experienced abusive behaviour or someone flip like that, I don't think I really understood it before. I'm beginning to get it now.

I had met the man before and thought he was chatty and friendly. Scales have fallen now.