Saying no to men

I enjoy the stare down when walking, now. I work on a very large shipyard and it's a mostly male workforce. I absolutely will not shift for any man who tries walking at me. This has only backfired once and I got a snidey 'fuck you' in which he heard! I also diverted to here from that other thread.

Just been pointed to this thread from another, really useful reading for me. Ereshkigal that audio really is chilling. Do you know who the author is? Like another poster I'm really interested in what the clues were for the women who spotted them and ran.

Also the point about not smoothing men's social interactions for them is very true and god, I've been guilty of that so often.

FlyingOink

Men do indeed play Pedestrian Chicken. If you can grab a seat in a busy public place it's quite something to observe. Usually the classic Alpha wins, but every so often they don't, their reaction is fascinating.

I'm a small straight female and I found my rock solid 'no' at about the same time I realised I have little to no interest in having a relationship again - I was married and have had a couple of LTR. I like men and have mostly male friends, but I couldn't be doing with one in the house on a regular basis.

Men absolutely do not see or recognise this. It's why they moan about women ghosting them, or letting them down gently, or "friendzoning" them.

This!

UnderMajorDomoMinor
I'm going to watch the crowds now. I've noticed this about men, buy surely they must get out of each others' way? Is there a Pedestrian "Chicken" rulebook?

And then there's the question of how willing you are to risk your safety by telling men no.
Men absolutely do not see or recognise this. It's why they moan about women ghosting them, or letting them down gently, or "friendzoning" them. It's why they can't understand why women aren't into hooking up with strangers, or why gay men get more action. Hookup and dating apps for straight people have fake female profiles to hide the fact it's a total sausagefest.
I've risked my safety to say no, I've been attacked too. My high risk strategy was borne entirely out of being a bolshy little shit when I was younger. Which is why I always labour the point about men being ridiculously stronger than women. 90s ladette culture (remember that?) made me believe it wasn't always the case.

Melanippe I totally agree. I hold my space in the gym by standing there (in the space I am using!) with a hand on hip between sets. It is amazing how many men walk almost in to me (I’m not on the way to anything and it’s not that busy!) because they’re so used to having people leap out of there way.

They also crowd in behind you at tills. I find the best way to deal with this is to lean back, or take a small step back to stand with your weight off centre. They soon back off.

Fair play to you, my theory was that my non-existent sexual value in the eyes of men made it easier, not that it was a prerequisite

I think the most important thing is that you aren't emotionally invested in men.

An attitude a heterosexual woman can have, too, if she isn't too desperate for a relationship, or for male approval in general.

And then there's the question of how willing you are to risk your safety by telling men no.

I am quite in favour of saying "yes, but I need to go to the toilet first" and then disappearing through the back door, if that's what it needs to keep you safe.

The most important thing for safety is to be able to think the "no".

If you tell a man "I'd rather not" and he persists, then that tells you all that his resisting a clear "no" does, doesn't it?

I agree that women need to trust their instincts and this is actually discouraged by society, and I found the posted you tube vid about Ted Bundy enlightening.
In the Bundy case, however, I am honestly surprised that any women became suspect. I would have to read up on what triggered that, maybe they were some truly creepy actions, but from the one interview I know of Bundy, the one before his death, where he talks about pornography, he comes across so convincing, honest and trustworthy, I can easily believe he could sell me a bridge. If he was like that with his victims, I can well understand why they were misled until it was too late.

A simple, but illuminating way of saying no to men is to simply not get out of their way when walking down a pavement. I don't mean that you should actively get in their way, but more to hold the line you're walking in. Once you start to do this consciously, it becomes really apparent the side stepping and dodging we do in order to facilitate men in public space, and how much men just assume you're going to do this for them.

ILikeyourHairyHands
Fair play to you, my theory was that my non-existent sexual value in the eyes of men made it easier, not that it was a prerequisite. In fact, if you're conventionally attractive you must come up against more bullshit than I do just for speaking your mind.
And you're absolutely right about the difference between men's and women's anger. Men's anger is always justified and women's always irrational, it's meant I've had to tone down my anger despite what I've written before, and in a way I feel less authentic as a result.
Mind you, when I show my anger (which now is very rarely) it seems to terrify men

@FlyingOink, I'm not a butch dyke.

I'm a completely femme bi who's never felt any compunction about saying Fuck Off to bell-end blokes.

I've always said no to men. I'm not interested in their bullshit.

Beware though. No fucker will like you for it and you will get into situations where people actively ask you to tiptoe around certain blokes because the lies keep the show going and the truth is unpalatable, and when you say no, YOU will be the pariah, not him.

BUT, I'm a teller of truth. You will also be known as a rager, an angry woman (women's anger is easily dismissed. Men's anger is violent and righteous).

Never be cowed. Never let a man's dick-head truth suppress your absolute truth.

And keep on saying No. No I don't want that. No you're wrong. No I don't agree. No I don't think that's right. No. No. No. No

NO.

Stick to your guns. It's better to be lonely and single than lonely in a bad relationship.

Well, yes, there's a reason I am still single. I am not sure whether I should be less choosy or not.
When I see what other women put up with (and not even abuse, just thoughtlessness and annoying behaviour) I sometimes think being a bit lonely isn't as bad ...

HestiaParthenos I get that, but most men, nice or not, interesting or not, gender non-conforming or not, will make a decision on whether they would sleep with a woman within minutes of seeing her, and certainly before talking to her. Of course men will also seek out like-minded women to form relationships with, but plenty of relationships started because bloke saw woman and thought "Hubba Hubba". They just happened to get on as well. (Hopefully!)

WeRiseUp
Thank you, I wasn't blowing my own trumpet. I was pointing out that the only reason I can act this way is because it won't cost me my relationship, or my reputation, etc. The flip side is that I get discriminated against in other ways.
I've noticed it isn't just lesbians who act in a similar way - not unfriendly, just not unnecessarily acquiescent- it's older women in authority too. Might have something to do with opting out of the "sexy" pool? I don't know.
older women in authority are very sexy in my book but nobody reads my book

That's normal though isn't it? Otherwise straight people would only form relationships after an extended formal introduction, no?

I am usually only attracted to men who have something in common with me. Doesn't have to be much, but being a tad bit gender non conforming is a plus.
For example, I am not sure I would be interested in a man who is too interested in soccer and drinking beer, therefore wouldn't try and court a man by pretending to like those things. (I also think it is dishonest. I don't mind men who genuinely like kittens, but it is rather easy to see which ones do, and which ones just pretend to.)

they weren't interested in me because of me, but just wanted some woman
That's normal though isn't it? Otherwise straight people would only form relationships after an extended formal introduction, no?
Of course, you're very right about screening dates. Everyone should do this. If you can't walk away from an unsuccessful date cheerfully vowing never to contact that person again you shouldn't be dating! But I'm sure many of us have been in a situation where loneliness, horn and optimism blind you to the very underwhelming reality sat across from you in the pub

FlyingOink

I was reading your post and thinking - need some of that- pronto! When you mentioned you are a lesbian a bit further down it made sense.

I've often noticed it with lesbian colleagues that they have absolutely not problem saying no to men and do none of that ego stroking or pandering.

I suppose that lesbians are so central to feminism - like the backbone.

Was it all puppies and kittens or did you get any weird and wonderful stuff out of them? Did they even notice you weren't contributing? That would speak volumes I think.

I am not sure any man ever noticed that I was being unusually (for me) quiet. I did say things, of course, but more tidbits of smalltalk than anything substantial.
I suppose that's the normal way women are experienced to communicate.

Several guys admitted to watching porn (though they probably would have if I had outright asked them without sounding too disapproving?), but apart from that it was nothing more shocking than them letting it show that they weren't interested in me because of me, but just wanted some woman.
Which for me was a reason to rapidly lose interest.

There might also have been some weird political opinions and some unreasonable complaints about ex-girlfriends, but I can't recall anything that stands out.

The most shocking thing a guy let show to me was not when I was on a date but playing pen&paper roleplay games.
Apparently, dosing someone with a love potion, which results in a relationship and marriage, isn't rape.

Not sure if he would have behaved the same if he was trying to get into my pants ... he did want to get into the pants of another woman in the group, so ...

I wsh that too, flying, but my dad was the same and he's almost 70 now and continues unchecked...

Goldagainstthesoldier he sounds awful. I always wish that men like that get exposed as what they really are. They rarely do, though.

HestiaParthenos what kind of thing did you find out by using that method? I'd have thought the men were trying any old route to get a shag, and might not have necessarily been representing their innermost being. Which itself further demonstrates that men will happily decide whether or not to have sex with someone based on looks but women dare not (or would prefer not? I don't know)
Was it all puppies and kittens or did you get any weird and wonderful stuff out of them? Did they even notice you weren't contributing? That would speak volumes I think.

FlyingOink, me too. It's all I want for Christmas.

Oh, he also sent me a message once saying "hello sexy" and when I replied coldly "I don't think you meant to send this message to me" he replied that he was just testing my reaction.

Cock. I wish he'd drop dead.