Excellent counter-view to ROGD

That's the weird thing, isn't it? Parents posting about their children, often girls, usually mum posting, don't know anything about what it's like to grow up in a female body or anything about their own children, do they?
They really should listen to unrolled Twitter threads by non entities with no actual concern for the wellbeing of their kids and ignore their own experience and instincts.

Transpeople claim that women on the internet know nothing about being teenage girls, social pressures and how men think.

But we know all too well.

Hi, can everyone henceforth please ignore icy? Its all getting rather tiresome.

I couldn’t work out what I’d done wrong.

Because it feels negative.

Up until then, it's good girl, clever girl, pretty girl (yes, I know).

And then there is an undercurrent.

Suddenly, it's different. It's not approving. It's not benign. It's not affirming.

It's confrontational, accusatory, and, very quickly becomes resentful.

What you were feted for, you now appear to be blamed for.

And this happens to almost every woman. They don't all develop gender dysphoria.

But the seeds are there.

And yes, the death of childhood. of girlhood. I remember mine. Catcalled by a man in a car, aged 13. I never wore that dress again. And i didn’t go back into town for weeks. I couldn’t work out what I’d done wrong.

Mine was age 11, La Rochelle, France. I was wearing my much loved Minnie Mouse striped navy T-shirt and shorts set. A group of young men started whistling and cat calling.

My mother seemed impressed and told me it was because I had nice legs

It's a very uncomfortable and disquieting experience at that age and not one young boys (as a rule ) are put through.

It's no surprise to me that it occurs around age 14

Absolutely. Girls are supposed to reach peak self confidence at age 11. It's so sad. You see your DD and their friends confident in their skin, remember them cartwheeling around unself-consciously, using their bodies in a myriad of ways and bam, their bodies start to develop, other people start paying attention to those bodies and then you see your DD or their friends often holding their hands across their bodies, self-consciously, and you long for those carefree days where they had the freedom to be themselves. We are women, we were girls. We know!

I would like to thank Garam for the OP. Not sure what side you are on, but anyone reading the thread will be absolutely convinced that ROGD exists and urgently needs investigation.

I’m unlikely to lose my temper

I can’t decide if i like that more about you, or your perfect command of the pointed understatement

And yes, the death of childhood. of girlhood. I remember mine. Catcalled by a man in a car, aged 13. I never wore that dress again. And i didn’t go back into town for weeks. I couldn’t work out what I’d done wrong.

May 2018 James Kirkup Spectator article:
Why are some MPs trying to shut down the transgender debate?

(extract)
"In 2009/10, the GIDS had 97 children referred, of whom 40 were listed as “assigned female at birth.” In 2016/17, the GIDS had 2016 children referred, of whom 1400 were assigned female at birth. The total caseload for the service rose 2,078 per cent in seven years. The number of assigned females being referred rose 3,500 per cent in seven years. Why have the numbers risen in this way? Is there a clear and undisputed explanation, which would render Lord Tebbit’s suggested research into causation redundant?

This is an issue addressed by Dr Polly Carmichael, who runs the GIDS, in a recent talk to the Association for Child and Adolescent Mental Health. In her thoughtful hour-long lecture, she said this:

“The rapid rise in the number of assigned females…. exemplifies the importance of keeping discourse open and allowing different voices to be heard.

“You might say the increase in the numbers of assigned females coming forward is [because] that it’s easier for females to talk about their gender-diverse feelings so what we are seeing is an increase in awareness getting towards a better representation of the true prevalence of this among females.

“A converse explanation, a question: are there issues for young women around how they perceive their gender? There has been a worry by some that people who would previously have had an outcome around sexuality are now having an outcome around gender.”

(In other words, these are girls who do not readily identify with the predominant idea of femininity and are sexually attracted to biological females, and who would, a decade or two ago, have grown up to consider themselves lesbians.) Dr Carmichael’s conclusion:

“The truth is we don’t know, but we need discussion in order to be thinking about what this could mean.”

Just in case that’s not clear, let me sum it up: the country’s leading centre for the care of gender-variant children says its caseload has risen more than twentyfold (35 times for girls) in less than a decade. The head of that centre doesn’t know why that’s happened and says the question needs further discussion" (continues)

additionally:
[Stephen Doughty MP] said. “Do you think the use of the phrase “trans lobby” is an appropriate one?”

As it happens, Dr Carmichael in her lecture said some things that seem relevant here:

“Gender has become amazingly topical and we have to be really careful not to assume that anyone is exploring or questioning their gender is going to want to change their bodies in line with that. The extremes on either side are not helpful. We need to look at the grey areas in between. To do that we need to be able to talk and discuss these issues. All too often stakeholders become lobby groups.”

link to the lecture quoted: soundcloud.com/user-664361280/dr-polly-carmichael-developments-and-dilemmas

Whatever the outcome, you haven't had any irreversible medical procedures carried out on you on the basis of how you felt at the age of 15 or 16.

Exactly.

The pp upthread who articulated the three types of trans. Firstly gender dysphoria, secondly gender nonconforming, and thirdly fetish.

The only one that needs any kind of treatment, or therapy, is the first.

It's not a lifestyle choice, it's not about diversity.

And, particularly with girls, it's a scandal. We all know what it feels like to be a teenager. But to end up infertile, with no sex life, and on permanent medication is heartbreaking.

Calling it something to do with diversity is nothing short of criminal.

Death of childhood indeed.

That makes me so sad.

And that's the difference between homosexuality and transgenderism.

Which is why conflating the two is deceitful.

Absolutely. You're a teen. You get a crush on someone the same sex. You maybe even act on that crush by having sex. You come out to your parents as gay. Then a few years later you realise you really are only drawn to people of that sex - hooray, you're gay. Or you realise you fancy both sexes - hooray, you're bi. Or you realise it was just that one particular individual in that particular set of circumstances, and for the most part you fancy people of the opposite sex. Hooray - you're (mostly) straight.

Whatever the outcome, you haven't had any irreversible medical procedures carried out on you on the basis of how you felt at the age of 15 or 16.

most women have a moment of ROGD, that first time when you are catcalled or wolfwhistled when you are on your way to buy an ice lolly in your shorts and t shirt at age 12,13,14

It's no surprise to me that it occurs around age 14.

Developing physically, but not emotionally or mentally, makes it very hard.

There is a complete lack of comprehension about the context. You don't know that your newly developing body is giving some random a hard on.

The realisation that you can be publicly commented on is shocking.

Hiding, disguising, minimising. It's a very common, female experience.

I've never seen an anime obsessive in action before. Are they all like this?

Icynoll, any chance of engaging with the topic now you've comprehensively convinced everyone that Datun is a thoughtless idealogue?/sarcasm

"I'll ask you for the third time, do you have anything to contribute to the subject of the thread?"

Yes.

The question as it remains before.

Why did you try to derail the thread by mudslinging and using ad hominem attacks when you know that such behaviour is the kind of thing that makes Mumsnet crack down on the board.

I don't care one way or another the business decisions that Mumsnet makes? The board stays up, the board goes down, all the same to me.

But it's not the same to the users of this board, so why did you post what you did knowing what @MHHQ reaction to this might be?

Or do you, on the advice of some randoms on the internet saying it would be a child safeguarding issue not to "affirm them" (b

And that's the difference between homosexuality and transgenderism.

Which is why conflating the two is deceitful.

FermatsTheorem There's little to argue with there. You'd think anyway. No-one without a personal motive would say B.

*"

I think I've been the target du jour for a few weeks now.

I ought to let you know icy, I'm unlikely to lose my temper.

Your position with trying to sanitise the link between AGP and anime porn, is noted.

As I said, I don't have anything else to add. My position remains the same.

I'll ask you for the third time, do you have anything to contribute to the subject of the thread?

You’d think, fermats, wouldnt you?

And yet so many keen to push option b. While simultaneously removing all gatekeeping and need for medicalisation for adults who are predominantly male.

"I realise you hold strong feelings on animé but this really isn’t the point of the thread."

Quite right, and the point I'm making. I've got no idea why Datun is so completely obsessed with the idea that one twitter user who, according to her has no followers and is shouting into the void, might watch anime.

Strange.

I think it's very easy to see what the issue is if you frame it thus:

Out of the blue, your early-teen child (so a seething mass of confusion, hormones, mood swings - because this is what all teenagers are like) announces they want to embark on a path which, unchecked, leads to irreversible, life-changing consequences (mastectomy, hysterectomy, sterility).

Do you (a) say "That's a very big deal. Let's talk about it lots, think it through carefully, try to work out where these feelings have come from, and above all, keep remembering that we have loads of time for you to come to the decision, and there's no need to rush into anything, specially something as massive and irreversible as this"?

Or do you, on the advice of some randoms on the internet saying it would be a child safeguarding issue not to "affirm them" (b) point them at a bunch of strangers on the internet saying "Yay, way to go, congratulations. Ignore your parents. Here's how to rush through the process more quickly"?

Even in the absence of any other information whatsoever about the trans debate, surely anyone with half a brain would go for option (a).

Is Viz gender critical I wonder? A less POMO organ you’d be hard pressed to find...

It’s a confusing turn, for sure.