Daughter with ROGD - issues with school

This is a vital point for all child protection issues not just the OP's particular issue here. These are some abuser techniques:

confidential disclosures (keeping the secrets of a vulnerable child to gain control of that vulnerable child)

parental alienation (so that parents are less likely to find out what is happening)

disavowal of a multi agency approach (makes it easier for an abuser to infiltrate into a position of closeness to children)

It doesn't matter how noble their intentions, anyone mirroring these techniques should be avoided at all costs. Firstly, because it makes it impossible for a child to tell the difference between someone they can trust and someone who might abuse them. And secondly because it nullifies the checks and balances we have set up to guard against abuser infiltration of institutions and positions of trust.

^^THIS absolutely firsts and foremost.

Yes, Datun. Which is why Lang's list is so important.

1. Encouraging children to share secrets with one trusted adult and no others...

2. Cutting children off from their parents

3. Setting oneself (or one's preferred pressure group) up as a "guru" who is the fount of all wisdom, while discouraging building a more rounded picture by contact with professionals in a wide range of fields whose expertise may be relevant and who have experience of safeguarding.

Anyone who does this is undermining safeguarding procedures, even if their motives are good.

I agree that HQ have made a rod for their own back, here. By being explicit about the rules, they are allowing the abuse of the women on here.

It's awful to behold.

Absolutely datun, but they tend to be people with something interesting to say...not me

But its really not fair that MNHQ is holding some posters up to an incredibly high standard and not everyone

And people stalking othe posters across the boards really isnt on

And holding FWR to a higher standard than any other board isnt on either

Most of the regulars are bored with the incessant nonsense of TRAs.

They respond mostly to warn newbies and lurkers.

vickyyyy

I have an ignore poster button...i think MNHQ have one too

I cant post what i want to say even if i phrase it nicely as it will be deleted

FWR regulars seem to be stalked on other threads and reported for deletion

We will be back at the yawn stage soon

Also please take this - it's always OK to take "expert" advice about your child with a grain of salt, and that principle applies even more strongly when "expert" is taken to mean "had a half hour training and read a pamplet". Second and even third opinions are good to have, but ultimately filtering all of that through what you know about your specific child, their history, their personality, and so on is your job as a parent. Don't let people shame or bully you out of doing that job, because it's absolutely vital to the wellbeing of your children.

If someone tells you something about your child and your gut is telling you that they're wrong, or that they may be right but you're not sure, it's always OK to keep looking for more information and keep asking questions.

I reported a couple of snappitys posts in here, but it seems I need not have bothered given HQ have clearly read them as they have deleted the REPLIES to the abusive posts?! What the actual fuck?

I still have not finished the thread, so no doubt snappity has had more posts accusing parents on here of child abuse left to stand, while people who reply to snappitys obvious goading bullshit are deleted. HQ..for fucks sake

safeguarding guidelines specifically caution against doing anything that replicates that dynamic even if you have the best of intentions because doing so makes things easier for those whose intentions are less good

This is a vital point for all child protection issues not just the OP's particular issue here. These are some abuser techniques:

*confidential disclosures (keeping the secrets of a vulnerable child to gain control of that vulnerable child)

*parental alienation (so that parents are less likely to find out what is happening)

*disavowal of a multi agency approach (makes it easier for an abuser to infiltrate into a position of closeness to children)

It doesn't matter how noble their intentions, anyone mirroring these techniques should be avoided at all costs. Firstly, because it makes it impossible for a child to tell the difference between someone they can trust and someone who might abuse them. And secondly because it nullifies the checks and balances we have set up to guard against abuser infiltration of institutions and positions of trust.

We're on a parenting website here. And all parents should be aware of these points so that they can adequately protect their children. This goes for all children and all adults working with them, regardless of anything to do with transactivism or trans issues. Not everything is about trans.

If you take one thing from this thread: please take these basic safeguarding points and never forget them. And distrust anybody who suggests you should ignore them.

Recent thread with contributions from many working in education:

OP imwideawake asked:
(extract)
"I wonder what Head Teachers, teachers (and anyone else involved in the nurturing and educating of our young people) are really thinking about the worrying way in which activists have turned their attention to children and have successfully infiltrated the school system, to the point they seem to be having having a very real and disturbing influence on young impressionable minds and their bodies.

What do they make of this mass bombardment of our children - encouraging children to go down the trans route, instead of leaving them be - to dress and behave how they want to, and to grow up with minimal interference to their minds and bodies.

The constant scaremongering of parents by so-called experts. The rolling out of dubious stats as a threat as to what might happen if the parents don't listen to the current advice.
Children taking hormone blockers when the long term effects haven't been properly tested.
Children being encouraged to mutilate their perfect bodies..." (continues)

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3301871-What-do-educators-make-of-what-is-happening-in-our-schools?

allowing a child to explore their gender identity with support from parents is the cautious approach because it allows parents to collaborate in the exploration through open-minded discussion.

You can “allow your child to explore their gender identity” without affirming or denying.

If you are a good parent, you can keep the lines of dialogue open and explain your reasons without forbidding, banning or traumatising.

You can take your child to counselling and get professional advise. You can weigh up all sides while you watch and wait.

You don’t have to blindly affirm e writhing a vulnerable minor thinks is a good idea.

You’d be negligent if you did.

@snappity you need to learn how to read better.

The parent has sought counselling, and the child is engaging with their counsellor. May I be so bold as to suggest that the counsellor, having met and listened to said child, and recommended continued talking and NOT affirmation or use of new name or pronouns, that in fact their expert professional opinion is far more relevant that yours, given that you do not know the child and have no relevant parenting experience.

Believe it or not, it's not about you.

Snappity

You have highlighted and agreed with the statement, "this is not a transgender issue,this is a supporting young people issue.”

I have read nothing in your posts that convinces me that you understand this.

Why is that allowed??

Procrastinator1
Our Council is a 'Stonewall Champion' DD's primary school has their logo all over everything, this will presumably go hand in hand with training of their preferred approach.

Background and discussion to the recent challenges and scrutiny of Allsorts School Toolkit in Vale of Glamorgan.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3277860-Transgender-Toolkit-criticism-scrutiny

also recent thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3312963-Every-parent-should-read-transactivisms-dangerous-myth-of-parental-rejection

We would be 'theying' all over the bloody place!!!!

Except it seems in terms of things like gender pronouns

YOU threw your toys out the pram when posters use THEY

The not being pressured into a gender goes both bloody ways

We have no idea what pronouns this young person prefers

Well...apart from you!

At Wadebridge school, Miles’s former headteacher says: “You just have to put the child at the centre of everything to enable that child to feel comfortable and supported. The biggest message I’d want to get out is that this is not a transgender issue, this is a supporting young people issue.”

This

But first maybe insist on a meeting in the week before school begins? You could put together a dossier of information to support your approach

I think more schools and governors should at the least be aware of articles such as this that include the different viewpoints, approaches and the wider picture.

It may well be that in many schools, their response has been very much informed by a small number of children / young people and their parents.

May 2018 Guardian article,
'Schools pulled into row over helping transgender children
As more teens come out as trans, experts clash over how schools should help'

(extract)
[Stephanie Davies-Arai Transgender Trend founder] says her broader concern is that by affirming students’ gender identity, schools may be nudging them down a route that can lead to cross-sex hormones and life-changing surgery without enough time to reflect. Teachers, she says, “are essentially being forced to collude in an experimental approach towards children with gender dysphoria”. She adds: “You can support children and accept them, without affirming their belief that their body is ‘wrong’.”

Adele Robinson (not her real name), a head of year at a secondary school, shares Davies-Arai’s worries. The school has had 12 children, all girls, come out as transgender in the past 18 months. The majority, she says, have autism, and some have experienced sexual abuse.

When they come out, she says, they have brought in information sourced from Tumblr blogs and YouTube videos. Although her team does its best to “support every child in a loving, kind and compassionate way”, she feels that staff are too frightened to challenge what she sees as harmful practices: “We have chest binders worn in school, which is horrible. If a child was cutting, they would be straight in with a counsellor. Yet damaging developing breast tissue goes unquestioned. It’s a gross failure in terms of child protection.”

[Susie Green Mermaids CEO] disagrees, and argues for a biological underpinning to transgender identity: “If a child or young person consistently, insistently and persistently states their feelings, to ignore, punish or repress their gender identity would effectively be reparative therapy.”

At Wadebridge school, Miles’s former headteacher says: “You just have to put the child at the centre of everything to enable that child to feel comfortable and supported. The biggest message I’d want to get out is that this is not a transgender issue, this is a supporting young people issue.”

www.theguardian.com/education/2018/may/15/transgender-row-teachers-afraid-challenge-breast-binding

Yes asking who they are taking advice from would be a good move. Also get a copy of the documentation they are basing their advice on.

It might be worth finding whether the confidential disclosure part is included. Where the advice is that if a child comes out at school, the parents are not to be told if the child doesn't want them to know.

I realise this isn't the situation with you, currently. But finding out whether they have taken on board that stance, would be useful

As it is a direct contradiction of safeguarding protocols and something that could be raised.

I'm sure I'm not the only person who is feeling a sense of anxiety both on your behalf, and with the situation in general.

It's appalling that this is being allowed to happen. You have my every sympathy and full support.

Can we compile a list of all the schools that have received training from Mermaids, Allsorts and the rest? FOI requests if necessary?

I would hope schools can recommend something equivalent for home Internet connections.

Duuno if that would help, these are chat rooms and somtimes linked to the children's social activities such as gaming and youtube

Op - just to add to the excellent advice from Dragoncake (and many other posters).

Get the details of who the school is taking their advice from and advise the school that in the event of any harm happening to your child (physical, safeguarding or psychological) as a result of their advice, you will use this information in order to seek compensation for your child.

Of course you may not go down this route but schools that follow advice from organisations openly rolling back safeguarding and encouraging parental alienation in the face of all collected wisdom must be held accountable when children are harmed as a result of their actions.

OP JAmes Kirkup Spectator article has some useful embedded links including a lecture given by Dr Polly Carmichael:
'Why are some MPs trying to shut down the transgender debate?'

(extract)
"[Stephen Doughty MP] said. “Do you think the use of the phrase “trans lobby” is an appropriate one?”

As it happens, Dr Carmichael in her lecture said some things that seem relevant here:

“Gender has become amazingly topical and we have to be really careful not to assume that anyone is exploring or questioning their gender is going to want to change their bodies in line with that. The extremes on either side are not helpful. We need to look at the grey areas in between. To do that we need to be able to talk and discuss these issues. All too often stakeholders become lobby groups.”

She did not name any stakeholder. But her words might be relevant to a charity called Mermaids. Mermaids is a charity that describes itself as “a support group for children and young people with gender dysphoria and their families”. Its CEO, Susie Green describes herself as “parent to a daughter who was born male.” Mermaids is a relatively small charity (it had income of £127,000 in the year to March 2017) with a big reach. It has prominent backers and its advice and recommendations have been absorbed and adopted by many public bodies. (continues)

Despite its influence, it is worth noting what Mermaids is not. It is not a research body. Its activities are support (for families) and advocacy: based on its contacts with those families, it argues for what it sees are better policies and practices by the NHS and others. It does not carry out or commission clinical or academic research. Its most recent annual report lists among its charitable activities “campaigning and advocacy” and says: “Mermaids has also become more active in lobbying”.

There is regular dialogue between Mermaids and the GIDS, but the two sides do not always agree. An example is on the time the GIDS team take to give referred children the hormone-blocking drugs that stop their bodies developing the physical characteristics associated with their birth sex.

In evidence to another Commons inquiry in 2015, Mermaids argued that GIDS should make such drugs available much more quickly. The GIDS team has generally resisted that call, more than once saying that “any decision around hormone treatment needs time and considered thought.”

And in evidence to that earlier committee, Dr Bernadette Wren of the GIDS said this:

“I know that Susie and Mermaids would like a fast track so that young people who are already well into puberty and feel that they know that they want to move forward into physical intervention would bypass our assessment process and move straight into physical intervention. We feel that is not an ethical way to practise.”

Here’s another summary. A transgender charity that says it is engaged in lobbying lobbied politicians and doctors to change the way children are treated by doctors. The doctors declined to make that change because it would be not be ethical to do so." (continues)
blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/05/why-are-some-mps-trying-to-shut-down-the-transgender-debate/