Trans women are women, is the biggest oxymoron ever written.

Okay, so is the proposal:

Woman = either an adult human female or an adult human male who sincerely feels that they are a woman.

One problem with this is that transactivists seem to also consider transwomen to be female, so not sure it would be acceptable to the transactivist community.

Another is that it is circular. What is the "woman" that they sincerely feel like?

Another is that we don't usually allow subjective feelings to dictate reality. For example an adult is someone actually over the age of 18, or whatever the cutoff in their local community, not just someone who feels like an adult. We treat mature 16 and 17 year olds as adults in many ways because it is polite and socially appropriate to do so, but no-one claims they actually are adults and should be allowed all the rights adults have.

Another problem is there is no objective way to verify a claim about what someone sincerely feels. The definition is automatically and necessarily watered down to
"Woman = either an adult human female or an adult human male who states that they feel they are a woman."
Where for social purposes like accessing changing spaces they may only need to state it verbally and in the moment they want to access the space, for e.g. prison, refuges they may need to state it consistently and in writing. Either way this is problematical as it opens the doors wide to abuse by ill-intentioned men.

I think perhaps the definition trans-activists have in mind in fact is more
Woman = A social category consisting of anyone who chooses to be included in it. Associated with but not limited to bodies with a female reproductive system and stereotypes historically assigned to those with such bodies.
Maybe too blatant to be publicly owned to though?

If we include transwomen under woman, then what will be the new word to define "adult human female"? I think I already know.

What we'll be left is with is women and c*s-women. But I already know, put, shut up and stop being transphobic.

Again - you are making a claim. It's like me saying the definition of 'goat' is goats + ducks.

This. But only if the duck really really felt like a goat.

Potential expanded definitions is woman = adult human female and transwomen

Except you forgot to exclude transmen, and anyone non-binary who doesn't identify as a woman, so very sloppy and still ridiculous and unworkable............

There still can be women born women spaces (with or without children) - this falls under positive action (not discrimination) in the Equality Act 2010.

No. Self ID sets up a direct conflict with the EA. Redefining sex as gender does too.

If self ID comes in, any man will be able to ID as a woman and enter spaces. It’s already happening in places - the Caledonian sleeper, the Scottish youth hostels. Hospital wards. You won’t be able to ask for a GRC, so there will be nothing you can do to challenge anyone

Your assertion that ‘oh if predators do bad things then people will sort it’ is not acceptable. Safeguarding works by preventing such acts, not by acting after the fact.

Self ID and using gender instead of sex will render the EA useless.

It will also seriously damage child safeguarding - again this is already happening - look at the girl guides issues.

Any group, who for any reason are proposing something that will damage child safeguarding are not acting in the best interests of society.

nor a desire to infiltrate spaces where some women require sanctuary from males

They are males.

I am arguing to expand the definition of women to include both AHF and transwomen.

Why though? Why does the definition need to change when it has a very meaningful application? And what is the definition of "trans woman"?

...This is just moral panic. If these rulings are exploited by a small percentage of predators they will be altered....

Except given that the court cases have already started, that it was predicted that such cases would probably occur in prisons, perhaps better not to make the changes in the first place? Just a suggestion...............

My guess would be they are Trans male allies holding signs Oh, how dare you assume their gender just cos they have beards, you naughty person you.

Some men want to create a category that can include them and also females but exclude other men.

Fine.
Describe the characteristics of that category and give it its own label (not woman, that already has a very specific meaning) and wait to see which men and women WANT to identify into it.

I am never going to accept being shoehorned into a category with some males and excluded from a category with other males without full understanding of the characteristics that define each category.

And I won't cede the word that belongs to adult female hunans, nor the one that means juvenile female humans either. Those words are already in use and men can't have them.

Describe first, label second.
Tell us the characteristics of this group that are SHARED within the group and NOT shared by people outside the group.

Balls in your court, TRAs. We're waiting.

A woman is an adult human female (including tables) (and snargles).

I mean, this makes no sense so why not be completely ridiculous.

I'm expanding the definition of woman to include everyone. I must tell my dad he's a woman under the new, expanded, definition.

As for the photo, I have no context. My guess would be they are Trans male allies holding signs but that is common sense really.

Maybe you're right. But there are many examples of transwomen (all over the internet) who look just like that.

Breton, did you read the link in my post about a transgender male who sexually assaulted four female inmates in a women's prison?

Do you think those incidents were "just moral panic"?

A woman is an adult human female (including some men)

we expand the definition of woman to include both adult human females and transwomen.

Why would we do that? Who benefits from making the biological class of women meaningless? Why would we include males in the term for adult human female? I presume you must have some really watertight compelling evidence why this should be done, right?

As for the photo, I have no context. My guess would be they are Trans male allies holding signs but that is common sense really.

A dog is: A domesticated carnivorous mammal that typically has a long snout, an acute sense of smell, non-retractable claws, and a barking, howling, or whining voice (including some cats)

I'm going to expand the meaning of "table" to mean "chair".

My experience is with all trans and non gender binary people. They weren't all lovely, just human, like the rest of us. There is a conflation between trans and NGB people and a certain form of predatory sexuality... I have never witnessed this not heard of this from any colleagues. There still can be women born women spaces (with or without children) - this falls under positive action (not discrimination) in the Equality Act 2010. This is just moral panic. If these rulings are exploited by a small percentage of predators they will be altered. We are behind much of Europe in terms of trans rights; this self I'd works in other countries without any real issue.

Potential expanded definitions is woman = adult human female and transwomen

Humans cannot change sex. This definition includes both sexes. It doesn’t work.

Vicky, that is an actual definition.

Currently woman = adult human female.
Potential expanded definitions is woman = adult human female and transwomen

Still merely a claim - because 'women = AHF' makes sense biologically/scientifically.

Your claim makes NO sense and cannot therefore be a definition. At all.

To try to make it make sense, you'd have to define 'transwoman' in a way that makes sense biologically. Can you?

Also if transwomen are women, how do you target the group of people who require access to sanitary protection, reproductive rights and so on.? The repeal the 8th campaign got accused of being transphobic because it focused on "women" which was taken to exclude transmen.

They are women because like it or not there is an imperfect choice between male and female

There is no choice about being male or female (intersex excepted) it's a biological reality and has absolutely nothing to do with how one happens to feel about it. Not liking being a man doesn't make you a woman.

and they are not male and do not feel safe in male environments
Women can feel unsafe in male environments which is one reason why we have spaces segrigated by sex.

If men feel unsafe in male environments that's men's problem to solve not women's. I really resent having thinly veiled appeals made to my female socialisation to just be nicer and put everyone else's need above those of women and girls.

They do not define as male
So basically they are not men because they say so and they are women because they say they are?That's not how reality works.
To paraphrase thebewilderness men are whatever they say they are and women are whatever men say they are.

Vicky, that is an actual definition.

Currently woman = adult human female.
Potential expanded definitions is woman = adult human female and transwomen

Breton, I think your experience is maybe based on what used to be called transsexuals (who have hormones and surgery eventually in order to manage their gender dysphoria).

The Brave New World of being able to self-declare your sex means that anyone who says they are a woman is a woman, with no clinical diagnosis of dysphoria and of course the majority of males opting to keep their penis.

That includes fully intact criminals who want to be moved to a women's prison. And of course, if they say they are a woman, then they are a woman. No debate. BBC link

A lot of transsexuals (who perhaps you've had most dealings with) have serious concerns about self-declaration of sex. Guardian link A few of the signatories of that letter have been on here discussing self-ID with us.

Ok. So those saying 'biology' this is covered by adult human female.

THat IS the definition of 'woman'. You can't then shunt a category oh humans into it that are NOT AHF.

Again - you are making a claim. It's like me saying the definition of 'goat' is goats + ducks.