Trans women are women, is the biggest oxymoron ever written.

What is it that make them realwomen?

Why should we expand OUR definition of women to include men? Trans women are a subset of men. They never were (or will be) women, just for the asking.

Great minds, Vicky!

I believe this because I believe transwomen are real women. They may not be the same as the majority of women, but that's no reason to exclude people.

Glitched what do transwomen have in common with "the majority of women" (aside from what all humans have in common)? What is it that they have in common that means they shouldn't be "excluded" from the definition of women?

I believe this because I believe transwomen are real women. They may not be the same as the majority of women, but that's no reason to exclude people.

Tell me how they're the same as biological women, please.

I didn't pen this. One of the bloody brilliant women on here did. It sums up my thoughts

I'm sick of hearing about "expanding the definition of women" - it means erasing women as a class of people who are oppressed because of our bodies! It means redefining actual structural oppression around men's feelings. It means erasing patriarchy.

Lol I am not trans.

I believe we should expand OUR definition of women to include transwomen.

I believe this because I believe transwomen are real women. They may not be the same as the majority of women, but that's no reason to exclude people.

And the phrase adult human female is in common usage on these boards. I simple made it easier to type by making it AHF.

I am not reducing you or anyone to an abbreviation

I'm going to ask again for the definition of 'transwoman' - given that Stonewall include an extremely wide range of men (including fetishists) in theirs.

Eddie Izzard calls himself 'trans' - is he also included in the proposed new definition of 'woman'?

NB Mumsnet - I'm pretty sure Eddie Izzard still uses 'he'.

Breton, four women being sexually assaulted is "an extreme example that is detrimental to the cause of trans rights"?

The harm is to trans people of course.

Not to the women who were sexually assaulted. The harm to them didn't even occur to you.

I think you've nailed your colours very firmly to the mast with that post.

And isn't is just a teensy bit odd how my posts usually make you sad when you've only just joined?

Bretonstripedcat

The trans people I work with are those whose dysphoria is so troubling that they tend to avoid going in to spaces where access is designed to be determined by sexed bodies as their dysphoria prevents them accessing either available space.

I am sympathetic to their difficulties and think society needs to do a lot more to help dysphoric people, but abandoning sex based provision is not the solution. For provision to be determined by sex, sexed bodies need to be significant. As such, it makes no sense to overlook sexed bodies in favour of gender identity, when determining access. If sexed bodies are key, then sexed bodies need to determine access.

For people with gender dysphoria, additional provision is needed. It is likely that many (perhaps most) without SRS would not want to access male or female provision. Those without SRS who want to access provision for those with differently sexed bodies are likely to cause distress to other provision users. It may well be appropriate for those who have had full SRS surgery to access provision for the opposite sex, but that should be determined on a case by case basis depending on the type of provision and the other people accessing the provision at any one point in time.

If Transwomen are women under a new expanded definition, does that mean that Transwomen are now at risk of women’s cancers?

And if so, does that mean I can ID as a man or non binary and identify out of my genetic risk?

Every time you post I am heartened by the reminder of the honest transsexuals who identify with women rather than bully us, and with whom women can find common ground over the issue of Self-ID, Homefromthehills.

YY To this, I am also very happy to hear such a sane and thoughtful voice supporting women and our concerns.

Currently woman = adult human female.
Potential expanded definitions is woman = adult human female and transwomen

So I think what Glitched is saying is that they would like this to be the definition of woman. Not that it actually is the definition (like the "is/ought" conundrum which has preoccupied philosophers over the years - is what is the same as what ought to be?)

In other words, Glitched hasn't answered the question, only told us what they want. Which I think we knew already.

Bretonstripedcat Miranda Yardley is not a lone voice. There are also a few transgender and transsexual posters on mumsnet. Their posts are very informative. Very much worth reading and getting all sides of the story.
I agree with you, I have worked with transwomen in Brazil so I know the struggles are very real and very serious. I have also worked with vulnerable girls and women. We cannot push the agenda of one group at the expense of another. There needs to be another way!

We don’t need u defining us

We are women that is it. Nothing else and not a AFH whatever the feck that is.

Ffs the pur3 cheek

We don’t need expanded. Go expand the men

Barracker calls it.

110% with you.

I am arguing to expand the definition of women to include both AHF and transwomen.

Firstly, as an 'AHF' may I say do fuck off to the far side of fuck for your attempt to remove my own word from me and reallocate me an acronym in its place.
Secondly, there is no possible characteristic that I could share with a transwomen and NOT with any other man that would make sense of me being put into a group this way.
Thirdly, this once again illustrates the purest of pure misogyny that insists that females must be forced to participate in this charade that WE are LIKE YOU when we are not.

You do not get to tell other people that they are to be forced into a group to which they patently don't belong, and you don't get to brazenly steal their own name to make this happen.

I'm a woman. The only group I fit into with anyone who calls themselves transwoman is the group "all humans of both sexes".

Women born women spaces - head explodes

Tbh I agree with you bowlofbabelfish - you seem considered and thoughtful in your responses. My work with Trans people makes me sympathetic to their struggles - they are vulnerable people, in the main. For many the decision to socially transition is a matter of life and death. More than a few service users have taken their own lives, as the current process to get the GRC is long, expensive and invasive...

Popchyk - I don't usually read your posts. They make me sad. This sounds an extreme example that is detrimental to the advancement of trans rights but one individual does not define a community.

Are we back to that if you get raped you can always report it thing again?
If a transwoman gets bashed in the men’s toilets can’t they just report it? Being male I expect they’d have a better outcome from the criminal justice system than women.

I’m not getting raped just to protect them.
Blunt, but there you are.

Yeah, my second one is simpler: Woman = adult human.

I mean, why not? We may as well have no sex segregation at all, since we are being told we have no sex-based rights any more.

I would prefer to see loos (yes we are back to loos, sorry) as completely non-segregated than segregated by "all decent men go into the men's, all the men who want to violate women's boundaries go into the women's with the women and children". At least in the former, there would be a few decent men around rather than just those who don't allow women to have any boundaries at all.

A dog is: A domesticated carnivorous mammal that typically has a long snout, an acute sense of smell, non-retractable claws, and a barking, howling, or whining voice (including some cats)

This. Exactly.

There still can be women born women spaces (with or without children) - this falls under positive action (not discrimination) in the Equality Act 2010.

Talk to many transactivists here who will gleefully tell you that there can't be. The onus is on the service provider to risk a legal case. They don't do this. They would rather discriminate against women who no one gives a fuck about, to pander to male feelings.

But not all transgender males say that they are women, Maryz.

Miranda Yardley for example.

So:

A woman is an adult human female (including some men who claim that they are women but excluding other men who have had sexual reassignment surgery but still maintain that they are not women).

Catchy, no?