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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Another Girlguiding update

556 replies

AgnesBadenPowell · 22/07/2018 21:48

I've been a bit quiet lately. I'm under investigation, which I can't discuss in any detail, although my membership is now at risk. In the meantime, I'm still a leader and Girlguiding has not changed its stance on trans issues. The following is a bit of a stream of consciousness but I'm feeling quite troubled by it and need to let it out! I'd also be interested in what parents of rainbows think.

I took my rainbows on a sleepover this weekend. It was great! It also really bought home to me the risks posed by the trans policy. I feel quite upset and tearful about it.

We had 20 rainbows in a church hall. Three women leaders, including me, also slept in the main hall - at one end, out of the way, with our own sleeping mats and bags etc - but in the same room. The other women leaders slept in an adjoining room (more of a lobby really).

The adults used the gents toilets and the girls used the ladies and disabled facilities. Despite this some girls weren’t too bothered and just changed in the hall! One nosy rainbow followed me into the gents - luckily I was only brushing my teeth and not changing - and of course I shooed her out.

How would a set up like this (which is pretty common) work with a trans child or adult? We could look for new venues with more rooms/options but Girlguiding’s stance is that the trans child and adult should use the facilities of their chosen gender. And if parents aren’t aware of the single gender/mixed sex policy, they aren’t in a position to complain or take their children out.

On a personal note, the two other leaders in the hall are women that I don’t know very well. One of them I’ve only met once before, she’s a brownie leader who came to help so we met our ratios. My sleeping mat was right next to hers as there wasn’t much space. It was fine but I could not have done this with a self identified (ie male at birth) transwoman. I don’t know any woman who would feel safe sleeping right next to a male bodied person they had only met once before. And I should never, ever be expected to do so. For all the make up, dresses, female names, most transwomen do not have bottom surgery and retain their male genitalia. I would never be expected to share sleeping accommodation with a man I don’t know (or even ones I do - I’m not sharing a room with my male colleague on a business trip next week) so why would it be acceptable in Girlguiding, provided the male said he feels female?

It really hit home that it’s only fair and reasonable to expect people of the same sex to share spaces like this. I really don’t want to make trans people feel bad or left out - but my dignity, my girls dignity and privacy, is every bit as important as theirs.

OP posts:
LaSquirrel · 05/08/2018 23:13

sturdy pyjamas
Ah, I see we have today's installment of "Genderists Say The Funniest Things" Up there with Ducking Under a Bar as an Olympic Event and The Geneva Convention.

But more seriously, I agree with Prawn (and others!)
only a bloke would have said such a daft thing.

It is as sinister as the rest of the 'helpful' victim-blaming 'don't get yourself raped' advice - "just keep your knees together", "don't wear anything slutty (hey, sturdy PJs!)". You don't even hear yourselves - but we do.

And bringing my derail back on track - single SEX environments are very important for girls, to experience the freedom of not having to worry about having a male around. Great comment by Mamaryllis that outlines the real benefit of a single-sex GG environment. Also excellent point that such an environment would also be detrimental to a 'transgirl', who has come from a strict genderist (or even homophobic) background.

Males do not get why single-sex environments are so important for women and girls (well, maybe they do, that's why they want to stop them at all costs) - but it is not something any male, even in a frock, can experience - the atmosphere will change instantly when a male enters the space. Shroedinger's WomanSpace. You can never experience it dudes. Never.

ChattyLion · 05/08/2018 23:13

Great post Mamaryllis

drspouse · 05/08/2018 19:22

Many parents still think that girl guides is single sex. The policy says that it is single gender without explicitly stating 'mixed sex'.
Incorrect
Parents are told the organisation is single SEX. But it is not.

AgnesBadenPowell · 05/08/2018 19:11

Ah, I see what you mean prawn. Yes, wires did get crossed. And I completely agree - only a man would make the sturdy pyjamas remark. So many men have no idea how vulnerable women feel. And, for the benefit of lurkers and any one else reading this, I know NAMALT but there's no way of telling who the Nice Nigels are from the ones who would do us harm.

I do know lots of nice Nigels - mostly husbands of leaders - who help on camps and residentials and would never dream of entering a female only sleeping area because it would cause huge anxiety and embarrassment and it puts them at risk of allegations of impropriety. If I told them it's ok, join us, we are wearing sturdy pyjamas, they'd think I'd taken leave of my senses.

Safeguarding exists to protect the child primarily but also the adult. I have not seen one good explanation as to why it should be suspended on the basis of how a few individuals feel. I'm a fabulous leader (obviously Grin), I'm honest and trustworthy, I have no criminal record or ill intent but I have regular DBS checks, I'm trained and had references taken, I don't go into girls tents or changing rooms (or males if there are sons/partners present), I'm never alone with a child precisely because security and safeguarding procedures have to apply to everyone to be effective. GG don't just take my word for it, and why should they? But if a male identifies as a woman, they are in. I'm
Not talking about a transwoman with a GRC - any male who identifies as a woman is treated as such.

And I'm sorry to hear what happened to you Prawn. Stories like yours are the reason I'm not prepared to back down. We cannot let this happen to our daughters.

OP posts:
IncrediblySturdyPyjamas · 05/08/2018 19:02

Anyway sorry for PJ-railing.

Back onto the subject in hand. Sturdy PJs won't do it. End of.

IncrediblySturdyPyjamas · 05/08/2018 18:59

Please tell me you are made of Flanelette: strong, sturdy; yet soft

I am now, since we got a R&D department.

I still have the scars from the prototype. Long plane journeys are out.

TransplantsArePlants · 05/08/2018 18:53

Incredibly

Please tell me you are made of Flanelette: strong, sturdy; yet soft

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 05/08/2018 18:52

Sorry, Agnes, we're at cross purposes.

I knew it was addressed to the sturdy pyjamas bloke. And only a bloke would have said such a daft thing. Sleeping right next to a male stranger, even in a room full of others, you could easily be assaulted. And if you were in amongst a lot of children or teenagers it would be easy to use that against you.

A man raped me when we were sleeping separately in the same room. He warned me that if I screamed it would draw the attention of the other men in the place and that might not end well for me. There were no women within earshot. I can well imagine being frozen in a church hall, not wanting to cause a stir that woke a bunch of GGs.

TransplantsArePlants · 05/08/2018 18:51

Mamaryllis

Bloody hell. I have had a glass of wine but you've made me tear up a bit. Great post

AppleKatie · 05/08/2018 18:46

Ive spent the last week at a large GG camp.

Despite the madness of the GGUK policy I am pleased to report that leaders on the ground were almost all:
A) openly gender critical.
B) outraged to learn the gguk policies and openly stating (once they realised them) that not on their watch would girls be so let down as to be forced to share with a trans girl without full discussion that included parents.

I would go as far as to say that if GGUK push this then they will ruin themselves.

We had (to my knowledge) one trans man on camp, he had his own tent, used the gents (which at least one of the men -there were only about 10 total, 1000+ girls/women- said he found uncomfortable) and there was much discussion about how now he was ‘he’ he was no longer entitled to wear uniform and must now be a unit helper (despite earning the LQ as a women about 5 years ago).

The overriding feeling from adults towards him was confusion and a sense of compassion because even the young women we knew pre transition was vulnerable.

IncrediblySturdyPyjamas · 05/08/2018 18:44

At the risk of sounding crude, surely a teenage trans 'girl' of teen age will wake up just the same as any teen age boy, first thing in the morning? In a tent with an un suspecting girl.

In a tent with their own home made tent, if you get my drift Wink

IncrediblySturdyPyjamas · 05/08/2018 18:43

Eh up.

Did someone call?

Anyhoodles, just to let you know - alot of men see me as a challenge not a barrier. It can be quite exhausting on some camping trips, not to mention hot at night! Phew!

Anyways - as you were. Give me a bell if I can be of assistance.

0800-STU-RDYPJ

TooHotToWork · 05/08/2018 18:38

Mamaryllis you are exactly the sort of leader GG should be delighted to have

I'm so glad there are brave leaders prepared to stand up but I suspect GG will double down rather than admit they are wrong, right up until a scandal when 'lessons will be learnt' Angry

AgnesBadenPowell · 05/08/2018 18:37

@Prawnofthepatriarchy that comment wasn't directed at you - I'm sorry if it came over as a dig. It wasn't! Nearly all women do, sadly, know that this happens all the time. My experience is one of millions. In many ways I got off lightly. I was addressing the disingenuous poster who came here solely to stir things up.

It angers me that men and women continuously minimise sexual assault and unwanted contact and brush it off with "wear sturdy pyjamas" or "it can't happen in public". It can and it does and Girlguiding is wilfully ignoring the facts.

OP posts:
Prawnofthepatriarchy · 05/08/2018 18:32

FWIW, sexual assault and inappropriate behaviour does occur in public spaces with fully dressed people. It happened to me.... No one noticed or if they did, they didn't say anything. I know other women who had similar experiences, including at mixed sex scout/guide camps.

I think most women are well aware of this, Agnes. I certainly am. It was the belief that sturdy pyjamas would make guides or their leaders immune from assault that made that poster's sex apparent to me.

Datun · 05/08/2018 18:31

I fully expect guides to introduce the sturdy pyjama badge.

Datun · 05/08/2018 18:30

Mamaryllis

Excellent post. Full of common sense, real life experience and a sensitive approach.

The scenario that made me sit up was a 14-year-old boy, fully intact, attracted to girls, in the same tent as 10 to 14-year-old girls. Without the girls' consent, and without the parents' consent. Or indeed, knowledge.

What is really going to infuriate, outrage and turn the whole thing inside out will be the defence along the lines of but they are a girl, despite your daughter being pregnant by them.

It's utter nonsense. All of it.

TheWomaninTheSturdyPajamas · 05/08/2018 18:28

Fantastic post, Mamaryllis

And brilliant work, AgnesBadenPowell

I can't believe all of the years of hard work fighting gender stereotypes have been ignored in the reformulated ethos. Because for any attempt at pretending that nothing has changed, it has. And put girls at risk more importantly. What are people thinking?

FloralBunting · 05/08/2018 18:22

Sturdy pyjamas. So de rigueur...

Another Girlguiding update
Sturdypyjamas · 05/08/2018 18:20

At the risk of sounding crude, surely a teenage trans 'girl' of teen age will wake up just the same as any teen age boy, first thing in the morning? In a tent with an un suspecting girl. This is an abuse scandal in the making, there will be hand wringing all round, 'lessons learned etc, those that put it into effect will be long gone though. Trans girls will be open to accusations of in appropriate behaviour

TheMostBeautifulDogInTheWorld · 05/08/2018 18:19

And even if a GRC becomes obtainable on a simple self-id basis, ^this would still be true"; unless GG limits its membership (for leaders and for under 18s) to holders of a GRC, it is not a single sex organisation.

Agastache · 05/08/2018 18:17

I can just imagine a judge letting a rapist off because a girl guide hadn't taken their 'sturdy pyjamas', that the guide or their parents didn't know would protect them from the man that was in camp, that they didn't know about.

I guess GG will change the guidance to ensure that all GGs now take 'sturdy pyjamas' now? Whatever they are. I assume they are so sturdy they cannot be removed? Isn't that called a Chastity Belt? So perhaps all GGs need to wear a locked Chastity Belt whilst on camp?

Jesus H Christ - what the fuck are the Girl Guides thinking?

TheMostBeautifulDogInTheWorld · 05/08/2018 18:17

It is also ceasing to limit its leadership roles to women unless it is only allowing TWs with GRC, and not those without, to hold those leadership roles.

TheMostBeautifulDogInTheWorld · 05/08/2018 18:15

where they will see statements about how proud GG is to be female only, how that's what the membership wants, and that GG uses the single sex exemptions in the equality act to lawfully be a single sex organisation

This is an outright untruth. Have GG not read the most recent guidance from the EHRC? www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/our-work/news/our-statement-sex-and-gender-reassignment-legal-protections-and-language

This means that a trans woman who does not hold a GRC and is therefore legally male would be treated as male for the purposes of the sex discrimination provisions

Since no child under 18 can hold a GRC, GG has clearly and categorically ceased to be a single sex organisation, and is not using the single sex exemptions allowed by the Equalities Act 2010. It really is that simple.

MrsFionaCharming · 05/08/2018 18:10

My partner was at a large youth camp this week, where the police were called and a 16 year old boy was removed from the site after sexually assaulting two under age girls.

I’ll admit one of my first thoughts was “Thank fuck I’ll never have to deal with something like that at a Guide Camp”

Except, with the current policy, there’s every chance I will now.