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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Another Girlguiding update

556 replies

AgnesBadenPowell · 22/07/2018 21:48

I've been a bit quiet lately. I'm under investigation, which I can't discuss in any detail, although my membership is now at risk. In the meantime, I'm still a leader and Girlguiding has not changed its stance on trans issues. The following is a bit of a stream of consciousness but I'm feeling quite troubled by it and need to let it out! I'd also be interested in what parents of rainbows think.

I took my rainbows on a sleepover this weekend. It was great! It also really bought home to me the risks posed by the trans policy. I feel quite upset and tearful about it.

We had 20 rainbows in a church hall. Three women leaders, including me, also slept in the main hall - at one end, out of the way, with our own sleeping mats and bags etc - but in the same room. The other women leaders slept in an adjoining room (more of a lobby really).

The adults used the gents toilets and the girls used the ladies and disabled facilities. Despite this some girls weren’t too bothered and just changed in the hall! One nosy rainbow followed me into the gents - luckily I was only brushing my teeth and not changing - and of course I shooed her out.

How would a set up like this (which is pretty common) work with a trans child or adult? We could look for new venues with more rooms/options but Girlguiding’s stance is that the trans child and adult should use the facilities of their chosen gender. And if parents aren’t aware of the single gender/mixed sex policy, they aren’t in a position to complain or take their children out.

On a personal note, the two other leaders in the hall are women that I don’t know very well. One of them I’ve only met once before, she’s a brownie leader who came to help so we met our ratios. My sleeping mat was right next to hers as there wasn’t much space. It was fine but I could not have done this with a self identified (ie male at birth) transwoman. I don’t know any woman who would feel safe sleeping right next to a male bodied person they had only met once before. And I should never, ever be expected to do so. For all the make up, dresses, female names, most transwomen do not have bottom surgery and retain their male genitalia. I would never be expected to share sleeping accommodation with a man I don’t know (or even ones I do - I’m not sharing a room with my male colleague on a business trip next week) so why would it be acceptable in Girlguiding, provided the male said he feels female?

It really hit home that it’s only fair and reasonable to expect people of the same sex to share spaces like this. I really don’t want to make trans people feel bad or left out - but my dignity, my girls dignity and privacy, is every bit as important as theirs.

OP posts:
averylongtimeasspartacus · 24/07/2018 09:04

At the moment leaders need a GRC to be considered as "women" in guiding- but children are welcome if they "identify" as girls.
If they don't, say they identify as non binary or as a trans boy then we are supposed to manage them out.

LangCleg · 24/07/2018 09:04

Children need to be taught from a young age that they have boundaries and the right to say no. That they have autonomy over their bodies. That they can flag things they’re uncomfortable with.

Absolutely. Coincidentally, I'm in another conversation on another website where a mum is asking other mums for advice on how to teach her children to trust their instincts. Nothing to do with Guides. But every single piece of good advice she has been given would be undermined and diluted by the current Girl Guiding policies. This is absolutely unacceptable.

BesmirchingMotherhood · 24/07/2018 08:59

I think that the leaders could be self-ided is shocking. Presumably you’d know if your own pack leader was trans, but our pack often goes away with 10+ other packs. I’m trusting those leaders too, as well as the ones I see every week. And I’m trusting the organisation.

Maybe I need to not (but then DD misses out).

Bowlofbabelfish · 24/07/2018 08:54

There is an issue with small children sharing and it is to do with boundaries.

Children need to be taught from a young age that they have boundaries and the right to say no. That they have autonomy over their bodies. That they can flag things they’re uncomfortable with.

The NSPCC ‘pants’ campaign is an excellent example.

By eroding girl’s boundaries like this you undo all that good work on safeguarding. You’re teaching them that their ‘no’ is irrelevant.

So whether a six year old is so young as not to be a threat isn’t the point. The point is that all those girls now see they don’t really have a right to safe single sex space, and that their boundaries are meaningless.

boatyardblues · 24/07/2018 08:47

Any dissent is slapped down and silenced.

Extremely troubling in any organisation working with young people and children. 😕

averylongtimeasspartacus · 24/07/2018 08:39

To those saying well they are only young and they wouldn't mind their 6 year old sharing.
Two recent events in the groups I am involved with.
Rangers, who can be 14-18 but in this case were 15-18. A weekend indoor holiday in a guide owned converted house. There are two multi bedded dorms for girls, and one leaders roomwhich sleeps up to 5 adults. There are no other small rooms which could be used for more privacy, short of sleeping in the corner of the main hall.
The Rangers arrived discussing this issue, they were adamant that while they had sympathy for trans people, they would not feel happy sleeping and undressing in front of one. Likewise for the leaders, I don't mind sharing with other women, but I don't want to sleep in the same room as a male bodied person, no matter how nice or friendly they are. I loved my fil dearly but I wouldn't want to undress in front of him!
Toilets and showers- there are adults ones and girls ones, no choice, no provision for extra privacy.
In the event of a trans gender member, we would not use this venue and it would be impossible to take girls away and , in my mind, follow proper safeguarding.

Next- a big international camp this summer for guides (10-14). Here it is the showers which would be a particular issue: they are in the main building and are part of the sports complex. They are of the big open room with lots of nozzles type - no curtains or cubicles. The organisers say they know it's not ideal and suggest girls take swimming costumes. Which is fine, if they are all girls...
Incidentally, male children accompanying their parents have to sleep in a separate area and have separate facilities. One leader joked that if her son was 8 (he's 5) she would identify him as a girl for the week.,,,

Sorry, that was long but is the situation on the ground. There are a few outspoken leaders in favour of all this "inclusivity" but most either don't know or are keeping their heads down. Any dissent is slapped down and silenced.

NoSquirrels · 24/07/2018 00:01

Talked to my mum about this today, in the broadest terms. Ex school teacher.

She said "I am extremely sympathetic to people and their personal issues. But I can't understand why those in authority can't see it's an open door to paedophiles. If you remove all the checks, what is left to keep the kids safe from harm, if anyone can say they're whatever they like?"

She'd seen the Sunday Times coverage on the GG - it wasn't like I needed to explain the issues.

That's what the "voice on the ground" is.

But on the flipside, I guess she's just another older woman so why count that opinion, eh? Angry

Bumbungo · 23/07/2018 22:30

I have spoken to the head GG leader in my area. She is def GC as are most of the other leaders. It's being enforced. She says most leaders will leave. They are all too afraid to speak out individually.

If there was visibility on this, then there would be support @AgnesBadenPowell. let me know and I can put you in contact. You have support x

ChattyLion · 23/07/2018 22:17

I noticed that Girl Guiding UK’s Equality and Diversity policy Hmm omits biological sex from the list of characterisrics that are protected under the policy.

www.girlguiding.org.uk/making-guiding-happen/policies/girlguiding-policies/equality-and-diversity-policy/

How very, very odd that a single-sex-beneficiary charity like GGUK would NOT include biological sex on their list.. ?

Bumbungo · 23/07/2018 21:08

Ah deleted again.

Claws = the words used to describe women's behaviour when they won't submit to you

All that fucking education wasted on foul mouthed women

NoSquirrels · 23/07/2018 20:48

particularly the bit in the 'stick girl' activity where the girls are asked if they want to change any of the physical attributes of their stick girl after being told that male bodied people can also be girls.

Oh no - is this an actual thing they promote?! The female penis?!

Bumbungo · 23/07/2018 18:42

twitter.com/Sweetlouise3/status/1021354556272316417

Same person posting on the Widow's thread.

twitter.com/Sweetlouise3/status/1021418873684414465

P.S. If you look at their bio, the comments about lack of education become rather amusing

OlennasWimple · 23/07/2018 15:31

Agnes Flowers Thank you for all you are doing on behalf of our daughters

The bar for single sex exemptions is set impossibly high and no one wants to challenge it

Have GG actually been told by a proper lawyer that their current policy is the only lawful approach to the conundrum? Or are they assuming that this is the case on the back of some "training" received by biased lobby groups?

Zeugma · 23/07/2018 13:42

I'm not an ex-Guide or a parent worrying about any of this for my daughters, but I've followed the story from the start and my admiration for you knows no bounds, Agnes Flowers

This is all so important.

I suppose everyone saw this in the Guardian on Saturday? Oh how I laughed.

'Girls can choose to work towards badges including...creating fruit smoothies and speaking out' Yeah.....right.

Not one mention of anything contentious, any of the shutting down of debate by GG, or any safeguarding concerns. Rainbows and unicorns for all.

Iamagreyhoundhearmeroar · 23/07/2018 13:10

Since when did the GG think “educating” girls in the fiction that girls can have male bodies was within their remit?
They don’t take it upon themselves to do any other type of sex education, do they? Confused

MsnotMrsjones · 23/07/2018 13:08

The Boy Scouts have splintered many times and now we have Sea Scouts,

Boy scouts was started in 1908, and Sea Scouts in 1912 so it's not a new addition .

FlorenceLyons · 23/07/2018 13:06

Agnes, thank you for everything you're doing on this. As the mother of a Ranger and a Guide, I have huge affection for, and gratitude towards, Girl Guiding and the opportunities being part of GG brings my daughters. But, while my admiration for the amazing women who lead their groups continues to grow, my respect for the people running the organisation as a whole has plummeted.

I spoke out for the first time about this recently when my younger daughter was due to attend an LGBT-focused session, and the leader of her group sent round details of what they were planning to cover in advance, including the gender guidance. I flagged up various concerns with this - particularly the bit in the 'stick girl' activity where the girls are asked if they want to change any of the physical attributes of their stick girl after being told that male bodied people can also be girls. The group leader responded very positively to my concerns - they didn't do that exercise, and she passed my email on to HQ. Hopefully this will be one of many complaints they're getting about this.

I'm full of admiration for your commitment to doing what's right for the girls in your care and beyond. Thank you Thanks

bd67th · 23/07/2018 13:00

The Boy Scouts have splintered many times and now we have Sea Scouts, Real Scouts, etc. The Girl Guides movement has always been one, even with Faith In Guiding disputing the Promise wording. Could safeguarding force a schism in Guiding?

MsnotMrsjones · 23/07/2018 12:51

The 'rainbow' in all its incarnations has been taken over - time to reclaim the rainbow I think!

Rainbows was started by the GG in 1987, this I know as I was one of the first Rainbow leaders.
The LGBTQ community started in 1969 using the Rainbow flag so there is nothing to reclaim.

AgnesBadenPowell · 23/07/2018 12:50

Thanks for you support.

I have written to my (labour) MP but she's been completely silent on trans issues. Her staff are very pro trans so it's hard to get past them. I know at least one other constituent received accusations of transphobia via email from one of her assistants for asking how women only spaces would be protected in the event of changes to the GRA (pre consultation). I've never had a response to my letters.

I feel very let down. The lack of critical thinking in Guiding is worrying. No one is allowed an independent thought. It feels like someone once read a bit of Judith Butler, interpreted it as literal truth and everyone else is joining in for fear of being labelled as unkind, regressive or transphobic. Even our new programme is the same old same old with some new names and badge designs.

It does feel like I'm screaming into a vacuum. A child will have to get hurt - and as PP said, go through the inevitable cover up and investigation years later - and in the meantime I think leaders will just stop or reduce the number of trips they do.

Someone raised a point about insurance. That's my career. I think liability insurers are in for a tough time whatever happens - parents of trans kids will sue for psychiatric injury/distress if trans kids aren't included and girls parents will sue if their daughter comes to harm. I'm doing more investigating into how insurers are underwriting these risks but it's a slow process. No insurer is going to say they won't cover Girlguiding on the basis of their existing policy - but if a big claim happens the whole market will reassess (as it does whenever there's a new claims trend) and they may force a change in policy.

Fair Play For Women referred GGUK to the EHRC, who support the current GG policy on the basis that membership criteria can cover 2 protected characteristics - sex and gender reassignment. I'm not sure where that leaves female children with the PC of gender reassignment.

The EHRC did say that GGUK needs to improve its communication but I've not seen anything relating to that yet.

I've got to get back to work but will check in later.

OP posts:
AnchorMum · 23/07/2018 12:33

Agnes - you are courageous and brave to speak the truth, at your own personal risk, and raise these safeguarding issues.

The guiding movement needs women like you and it is beyond appalling that you are being investigated.

Thank you for standing up for girls Flowers The 'rainbow' in all its incarnations has been taken over - time to reclaim the rainbow I think!

MipMipMip · 23/07/2018 12:16

As I understand it Scouts will not reveal if someone is transgender and so they may end up sleeping/changing with the opposite sex too. So there is still risk.

It's difficult - I understand not wanting to out a child but I don't see how you could ensure everyone is comfortable without everyone being informed. And I don't agree with outing unnecessarily.

Flowers for Agnes. Thank you for all you're doing.

AgonyBeetle · 23/07/2018 11:51

What’s the risk with a male-bodied child joining? I thought Rainbows were only little. DS is 6yo and I can’t imagine any harm coming from him having a sleepover with female-bodied children. He often shares a room with his sister although I suppose family is different.

Here's the most likely scenario, and one which is in no way based on the assumption that trans teens are perverts or predators:

A 13yo boy who cannot quite get his head around identifying with established images of traditional masculinity has decided that his problems can be resolved by identifying as a girl. He changes his name and pronouns, and joins a guiding pack.

On a residential this child, who is very vulnerable in terms of social adjustment and mental health, is put in a dorm with a group of girls. Bear in mind here that girls have been socialised to be understanding and supportive to other people, particularly where those people are vulnerable, and particularly when those people are male. Some very intense conversations follow, in the privacy of the dorm, and the girls take him under their wing. The girls are (let's assume) mainly attracted to boys, and the trans child, who has male hormones and genitalia, is attracted to girls.

These children, one of whom has a functioning penis and the others who are able to get pregnant are all in a dorm or tent together, with their strong emotional and hormonal impulses, their sexual curiosity and their lack of experience at negotiating relationships. Add in the strong message they are receiving from society in general, and the organisation running the residential in particular, which tells them very clearly that rejecting males or penises means they are unsympathetic transphobic bigots.

Can you still not see the giant double-decker bus-sized problem with this scenario?

Datun · 23/07/2018 11:43

MelanieSmooter

Gosh I wonder how beavers/cubs, being to both sexes, could possibly manage. hmm

It's called consent.

Wanderabout · 23/07/2018 11:29

Mixed sex sleeping is a risk to boys too.

Who wants their teenage son to accidentally become a father because a youth group were so woke they forgot basic biology?

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