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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Another Girlguiding update

556 replies

AgnesBadenPowell · 22/07/2018 21:48

I've been a bit quiet lately. I'm under investigation, which I can't discuss in any detail, although my membership is now at risk. In the meantime, I'm still a leader and Girlguiding has not changed its stance on trans issues. The following is a bit of a stream of consciousness but I'm feeling quite troubled by it and need to let it out! I'd also be interested in what parents of rainbows think.

I took my rainbows on a sleepover this weekend. It was great! It also really bought home to me the risks posed by the trans policy. I feel quite upset and tearful about it.

We had 20 rainbows in a church hall. Three women leaders, including me, also slept in the main hall - at one end, out of the way, with our own sleeping mats and bags etc - but in the same room. The other women leaders slept in an adjoining room (more of a lobby really).

The adults used the gents toilets and the girls used the ladies and disabled facilities. Despite this some girls weren’t too bothered and just changed in the hall! One nosy rainbow followed me into the gents - luckily I was only brushing my teeth and not changing - and of course I shooed her out.

How would a set up like this (which is pretty common) work with a trans child or adult? We could look for new venues with more rooms/options but Girlguiding’s stance is that the trans child and adult should use the facilities of their chosen gender. And if parents aren’t aware of the single gender/mixed sex policy, they aren’t in a position to complain or take their children out.

On a personal note, the two other leaders in the hall are women that I don’t know very well. One of them I’ve only met once before, she’s a brownie leader who came to help so we met our ratios. My sleeping mat was right next to hers as there wasn’t much space. It was fine but I could not have done this with a self identified (ie male at birth) transwoman. I don’t know any woman who would feel safe sleeping right next to a male bodied person they had only met once before. And I should never, ever be expected to do so. For all the make up, dresses, female names, most transwomen do not have bottom surgery and retain their male genitalia. I would never be expected to share sleeping accommodation with a man I don’t know (or even ones I do - I’m not sharing a room with my male colleague on a business trip next week) so why would it be acceptable in Girlguiding, provided the male said he feels female?

It really hit home that it’s only fair and reasonable to expect people of the same sex to share spaces like this. I really don’t want to make trans people feel bad or left out - but my dignity, my girls dignity and privacy, is every bit as important as theirs.

OP posts:
writingbymoonlight · 24/07/2018 16:41

Querying the assumption that trans girls are attracted to men is what got me escalated to the supervisor...

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 24/07/2018 16:28

I was not to worry because ‘trans girls are not exactly the same as cis boys’.

I wonder if they assume transgirls are gay? Because a lot of people do, and it might go some way to explaining their weird complaisance about sexual activity. Welcome to FWR, Writingbymoonlight.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 24/07/2018 16:22

When you remember that we're talking about the GG - the GG, ffs - I find it hard to believe how utterly, totally bonkers all this nonsense is.

enoughisenough12 · 24/07/2018 16:05

Have I got this right?
A woman girl guide leader who identifies as a "not woman" (man?) is restricted in their responsibilities - because men are a threat? Not suitable to partake in all girl guiding activities or what?
But a man who self identifies as a woman can do everything in the girl guides - full responsibilities, supervising all aspects of residentials, share sleeping , washing accommodation etc etc because ???

I know it's hot but surely this reaches the heights of insanity - although having just read about the charming Scottish children's convenor on another thread maybe it is the heat... Confused

AgnesBadenPowell · 24/07/2018 16:02

I am also concerned about false accusations.

That's weird about GGUK saying no one is allowed to have sex. How exactly are leaders supposed to stop 2 18 year olds (one ranger, one ranger scout) from doing what they want on a large mixed camp?

And anyway, GG leaders are permitted to give out barrier contraceptives at mixed camps to members over 13, provided parents are informed that condoms are available and the policy is clear

https://www.girlguiding.org.uk/globalassets/docs-and-resources/programme-and-activities/letstalkkcamp2014.pdf

OP posts:
Melamin · 24/07/2018 16:01

There's always the injectable LARCs Hmm

Lancelottie · 24/07/2018 16:00

How would the leaders know which 'girls' needed the condoms?

LangCleg · 24/07/2018 15:52

And how marvellous that they have managed to find an effective method to end teenage pregnancy, by simply telling teens that they cannot have sex!

Stephen Whittle came on here a few months ago and had the most marvellous solution to this! He said that Leaders should be issued with a supply of condoms.

(I kid you not.)

LangCleg · 24/07/2018 15:51

**

All the LOLs!

Melamin · 24/07/2018 15:50

I have been reading about the ROGD week on Transgender Trend where a therapist describes the girls' problems and social isolation and how they want to be part of a group. They don't conform. They are lonely. Isn't this what Guiding is supposed to help withSad

ludicrousmode · 24/07/2018 15:25

The other potential problem with mixed sex sleeping arrangements is not only sexual assault but false accusations of sexual assault l. Perhaps the question to present to GGHQ is 'how do we protect male-bodied trans women from false accusations of assault?' - maybe that'd be deemed worthy of some consideration?

Melamin · 24/07/2018 15:23

And how marvellous that they have managed to find an effective method to end teenage pregnancy, by simply telling teens that they cannot have sex! That used to work well in the 1950s Hmm (My in-laws told me that the church dances and waltzing were the closest they ever managed to get physically, so maybe it wasn't the only thing)

OlennasWimple · 24/07/2018 15:04

Welcome to FWR writing!

Were GG able to articulate how a "trans girl" is different to a "cis boy"? Hmm

And how marvellous that they have managed to find an effective method to end teenage pregnancy, by simply telling teens that they cannot have sex!

AncientLights · 24/07/2018 15:03

'Trans girls are not exactly the same as cis boys.' I wonder if GGUK would care to explain that. Maybe they think they're all gay. My parents forbade sexual activity too: didn't make one iota of difference to me. What planet are they on?

writingbymoonlight · 24/07/2018 14:49

I’m de-lurking to let you know I was one of those who contacted GG after seeing the Sunday Times letter - I also found FWR as a result!

My email ended up with the complaints team and I had an interesting exchange where it was acknowledged that ‘it is a safeguarding issue’ but I was not to worry because ‘trans girls are not exactly the same as cis boys’. Also, any fears regarding unwanted preganancy were unfounded as GG prohibits any sexual activity on residentials Hmm

What struck me though was that the person responding was reasonably sympathetic and giving stock answers without any conviction or genuine understanding. I think I pushed too far as my final response was from a ‘supervisor’ who had the party line down pat.

Agnes, let me know if you need support - I’m a parent of a brownie and an ex leader and would be happy to lend you my voice if required.

AgnesBadenPowell · 24/07/2018 13:53

No one would know if there's a leader with GRC. The law is clear - it would be illegal in some circumstances and unethical in all to "out" any individual, whether they are an adult or child. The right to privacy and dignity includes everyone.

My concern is that by not making it abundantly clear that GG is a mixed sex / single gender organisation, parents and children will unwittingly find themselves in situations they would not have consented to.

Very few parents will go through the policy on the website in detail - most will assume it's a female only space. In my view, every consent form for a residential trip should have a standard statement - "GG is a mixed sex / single gender organisation and we don't guarantee single sex accommodation" or words to that effect. No child can go on a trip without this form - every parent will know and can make an informed choice.

The scouts policy includes a statement that that everyone should be comfortable with the arrangements. That's all I'm asking for. Funny how I haven't seen anyone suggest that Scouts should be referred to the police or social services. Women - know your place.

OP posts:
LaSquirrel · 24/07/2018 10:21

I noticed that Girl Guiding UK’s Equality and Diversity policy hmm omits biological sex from the list of characterisrics that are protected under the policy.

Woah Chatty! What a startling omission! GG have seemingly lost the plot.

the EHRC, who support the current GG policy on the basis that membership criteria can cover 2 protected characteristics - sex and gender reassignment. I'm not sure where that leaves female children with the PC of gender reassignment.

That would be, Agnes, sadly under-the-busville. In this crazy woke world, 'gender' (identity) trumps born sex of female.

Iamagreyhoundhearmeroar · 24/07/2018 10:06

Well, you’re not allowed to ask, are you? That’s the true horror of it.
I would assume the self ID thing means they don’t say they “identify as a woman”, they simply declare they are a woman.
And it’s a potential hate crime to even raise the question should you have one....
How in the name of all that’s holy did we get here?

Wanderabout · 24/07/2018 10:02

Are their any male born guide leaders with a GRC or who have self-ID'd as a woman?

Do GG have any way of knowing?

How would anyone external to guides find out or even know if they knew or not?

Datun · 24/07/2018 09:47

If an adult self-identifies as not being a woman

Does it actually say not being a woman???

Can they not bring themselves to say identifies as a man?

You could identify as a frog which is 'not being a woman' ffs.

Everything in the universe, other than a woman, is not being a woman.

It's all absolute wank.

averylongtimeasspartacus · 24/07/2018 09:39

Right, it's worse than I thought- that little gem had slipped past me.

BesmirchingMotherhood · 24/07/2018 09:33

Sadly, it’s not true.

‘If an adult self-identifies as a woman then they are able to undertake all adult roles in guiding and may, if they wish, make their Promise.
If an adult self-identifies as not being a woman then they are able to take volunteer roles that do not require them to complete a Leadership Qualification or to make their Promise. This includes the role of Unit Helper and support roles such as Adviser or Coordinator.’

www.girlguiding.org.uk/making-guiding-happen/policies/girlguiding-policies/equality-and-diversity-policy/transgender-gender-reassignment/

BesmirchingMotherhood · 24/07/2018 09:29

At the moment leaders need a GRC to be considered as "women" in guiding
If that’s true (and I hope it is) it’s a good argument against moving to self-Id as a route to GRC.

Datun · 24/07/2018 09:23

I thought they could Self-ID? Is there a specific policy on this and if so how is it communicated? How is it even checked?

I'd like to know the answer to that. Do they ask for proof? Do they ask to see the birth certificate?

Wanderabout · 24/07/2018 09:16

At the moment leaders need a GRC to be considered as "women" in guiding- but children are welcome if they "identify" as girls.

I thought they could Self-ID? Is there a specific policy on this and if so how is it communicated? How is it even checked?

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