Another Girlguiding update

Dear Girl Guides HQ,

To 'identify as a girl' has to involve at some level, in some way, a performance of femininity - but this is exactly what Girl Guides as a movement claims it is against, ie the stereotyping of girls and girlhood.

GG is supposed to challenge stereotypes of girlhood and the stultifying performances of femininity that so constrain so many girls - not appease and assuage a load of (frankly) artificial, westernised, repressive and damaging social 'norms'.

Oh and do the Charity Commission know you've changed your mission?

it looks a lot like Stonewall- with those kind of views as quoted upthread- have been working with GG UK:

Including Pips/Phil Bunce apparently. What expertise does Pips/Phil have in policy making around safeguarding children, GG?

And also GG (if you do in future decide to be a mixed sex organisation - openly - rather than covertly, as at present ) you will still need proper safeguarding policies..

If GGHQ are monitoring this thread, I’m glad.

I’m worried. I like GG. I want all girls to be supported to be who they are. But I am also a parent and a realist and I see massive red flags for safeguarding, let alone all the other issues surrounding oppressive gender norms that GG strived to break free of.

If GG is to be mixed sex, then its constitution and fundamental guidelines must change. Publicly, transparently.

Swapping to a single gender mixed sex organisation is fine if you stand up and argue the case for that. And don’t create a witch hunt if “disrepute” among your leaders who seek open debate.

GGHQ - you can do better. I’d love my faith restored.

If you look on the Guiding pages:

www.girlguiding.org.uk/making-guiding-happen/running-your-unit/including-all/lgbt-members/supporting-trans-members/

it looks a lot like Stonewall- with those kind of views as quoted upthread- have been working with GG UK:

Eg ‘I felt alone because I had no one and it scared me. - Quote provided by Stonewall’ etc.

This is really shocking. What on earth are Stonewall’s credentials for advising other charities on policies for their residential trips and sleepovers with children... especially where these give rise to such blindingly obvious safeguarding problems?!

I would not send my daughter to GG while this policy is in place and I will speak up to ensure that those who do send their daughters understand the full implications of this GG policy.

Hear, hear. My own girls haven't shown any interest, but thinking about some of the girls I work with...you know, you can't count on children understanding any of this. I have ten year old girls who can barely write legibly, can't add up their change in a shop and really struggle to navigate friendships - some of them are no more mature at ten than children in the infants. And that's before you get to any with difficult homes or abuse in their backgrounds. How are they supposed to navigate this change in what they - and their parents - think is a predictable, safe space?

GG Association you are a disgrace and not fit to have girls entrusted into your care.

I have 3 questions.

You have very strict policies regarding the sleeping arrangements for male children of guide leaders.

1. Why do you have these in place?

2. What are the qualities manifested in “gender identity” that mean the level of safeguarding applied to male children of guide leaders is not required for a male child who identifies as female?

3. if gender identity is entirely subjective and internal, and cannot be perceived by anyone else, what is the difference between a male child and a male child who identifies as female from the perspective of a guide sharing a dorm with them?

Wander, Olenna. Wow. I had missed that. I am horrified. What an utterly dangerous, abusive and fundamentally unethical position to advocate for.

What about the child’s right to privacy, to an open future, to knowledge of his or genetic origins- not to mention all the stuff we know from outdated practice in closed adoption and secret donor conception that you know, it really fucks up your child if you lie to them about their origins and personal history. ? Etc etc etc.

GG how can you fail to see:

A) the obvious safeguarding issues with accommodating those who have the wherewithal to impregnate alongside those who have the capacity to be impregnated. Please tell me that someone with the power of critical thought has considered in good faith whether "we don't permit intercourse" and "condoms are available" are adequate responses to this issue

B) that this reinforces unhealthy gender stereotypes

C) that this casts GNC girls adrift and sends the message that they are not good enough girls

D) that this undermines the lessons that girls must learn about respecting their own boundaries and expecting others to do the same

E) the breathtaking audacity of juxtaposing your treatment of those who have spoken out against your introduction of a new "Speaking Out" badge

I would not send my daughter to GG while this policy is in place and I will speak up to ensure that those who do send their daughters understand the full implications of this GG policy.

In that case - GG Association, you are throwing the girls the movement was founded for under the bus in an effort to appear on trend, and pretty much any leader who follows your insane guidelines is doing so out of fear of repercussions, not a genuine agreement that there is any logic contained within whatsoever.
Oh, and shame on you. You’re a disgrace to womanhood (the old fashioned kind).

They wrote to them to tell them about it.

No-one likes a tell tale

GG - you've lost the plot if you think that throwing away safeguarding policies in order to accommodate male-bodied persons into the guiding movement is A-OK

That's what this person on Twitter says. They wrote to them to tell them about it.

They’re monitoring this thread??

Apparently GG are monitoring this thread, so it might be worth directing all our best "FFS wise the fuck up about child safeguarding and stop pandering to aggressive activists who do not have little girls' best interests in mind" arguments directly to them:

twitter.com/Sweetlouise3/status/1021801262369714176?s=20

ChattyLion "I imagine it might not be long before GRCs for kids is added to some of the TRA groups’ political aims"

Have you read the thread about the Stonewall briefing on completing the GRC consultation? They are recommending that respondents press for a GRC to be available to 16 and 17 yos on request, and to under 16 yo with parental consent

The Scottish children's commissioner thinks children should be able to change their gender without parental approval.

I imagine it might not be long before GRCs for kids is added to some of the TRA groups’ political aims

What, like this you mean?

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/plea-to-let-children-swap-gender-on-birth-certificate-2rj8b7ccq

You have to be over 18 to start the GRC process:
www.gov.uk/apply-gender-recognition-certificate

Currently (thank goodness) there is no legal recognition of a child under 18 ‘changing sex’ on their legal documentation. Neither a child nor her or his parents (on the child’s behalf) can apply for this process.

Agree with previous posters about the non-possible category of the ‘trans child’.
it’s a bit like the claiming of children to be an ‘ child’ IMO.

There is so much outside influence and social contextualisation to be considered in that concept, to the extent that this label can never be an autonomous decision by the child themselves- it’s a label that they are assigned by adults with a particular interest in labelling the child in that way.

As much as I disagree with many of Richard Dawkins’ arguments - on that particular point about the labels that adults ascribe to children’s stated ‘beliefs’, (or in the face of the child’s stated lack of belief) to suit their own adult purposes, I think Dawkins is right.
www.richarddawkins.net/2015/02/dont-force-your-religious-opinions-on-your-children/

I imagine it might not be long before GRCs for kids is added to some of the TRA groups’ political aims. This group appear not to agree with legal documentation and haven’t developed their argument much beyond calling for ‘mandatory education, written & taught entirely by trans people, at all educational stages, from nursery to adulthood.’* but I wonder if other groups may be considering the logical conclusions of TRA arguments as applied to children.

• www.google.co.uk/amp/s/edinburghath.tumblr.com/post/163521055802/trans-health-manifesto/amp

Agreeing with previous posters I think that many people who haven’t really been much exposed to the TRA narrative will assume quite wrongly that a person’s transgender presentation means that individual has lesbian or gay sexual orientation. This is most definitely not an assumption anyone should make.

This assumption may arise partly as an obfuscation caused by the huge expansion of the LGBT+ etc umbrella to encompass.. kind of everyone. ‘Trans’ is not a sexuality, although under that umbrella this would include autogynephilia which is a sexual fetish.

mirandayardley.com/en/what-autogynephilia-is-and-what-is-it-not-a-brief-note/

@enoughisenough12 interesting point about the Dundee children's convenor and councillor.

mobile.twitter.com/grogipher?lang=en

They don't like male pronouns, are a scout leader, and are arguably ?trans (it's genuinely hard to tell). I wouldn't especially want this person's fairly-aggressive swearing around children.

Oops, first paragraph should be bolded. Sorry.

the EHRC, who support the current GG policy on the basis that membership criteria can cover 2 protected characteristics - sex and gender reassignment. I'm not sure where that leaves female children with the PC of gender reassignment.

Forgive me Agnes, but I thought that to be covered by gender reassignment you had to be over 18? How can children be covered by this if they can't legally reassign their gender until 18. Surely that can't be what ECHR ruled?

I'm really confused and worried by all this. All the adults in charge seem to have gone mad!

Agnes I can’t imagine how frustrating and heart breaking this is for you. Have you told the parents What’s going on?

Maybe your troop can get their “protesting” badges campaigning against this shit?

Hats off to those of you, particularly Agnes who are trying to get GG to unravel the insanity they are spouting. Even reading about it is making me want to bash my face against a wall while screaming mrrrrgggghhjhjjjjj omfg you fucking nutters how can you possibly hnnnnnrhhhdgggggghhh.

So yeah. You’re a lot more patient than me. Probably for the best I’m not personally involved because Jesus H Christ it is one of the most outrageous things I have ever seen.